Some extra clarification from the reddit thread:
Q: Can you clarify what they're doing here? What exactly is bolt-tapping? A: [Bolt-tapping] is [only somewhat] related to [Tetris] rolling with how the back of the controller is still utilized, but the rapid tapping comes from the friction on the wooden board he's using. Basically, people playing Minecraft came up with a way to "dragclick". See how he tapes his mouse to achieve better friction: Timestamp to dragclicking on a freshly taped mouse: In the Tetris Discord people referred to the NES controller variation as bolt-tapping, so quite a few terms for this kind of stuff it would seem. I've personally came across "dragclicking" before, but couldn't do it at all in the past. I tried it again on an old mouse, and somehow it worked this time - all about hands being a little sweaty apparently. Didn't need any practice for the basic dragclick, but trying it with the mouse flipped and against table surface was another level of awkward though.
Actual musician demonstrating this technique on a tambourine(!): Another interesting method: spreading some of the glue from duct tape to achieve better friction. (Just taping and pulling it off.) Lots of different possibilities, I imagine. My hands would always sweat when speedrunning Battletoads, so maybe no extra tools are even needed!
So, that's all I can think of for the time being. Good luck to anyone daring enough to try and perfect this new discovery! :)
So, having heard about rolling in Tetris for the NES that has been all the rage lately, I decided to ask around to convince someone in the Tetris community to try it on the wall, and by sheer coincidence it turned out LeKukie has devised a method that involves "bolt-tapping" (maybe also known as drag-clicking, apparently popularized in minecraft). Here's a video of it LeKukie recorded (LeKukie was patient enough to breeze through Turbo Tunnel just to get there, BTW!):
Hi, ukionik! Glad to see you've stuck with this community over the years, as it is sadly rather neglected. (We don't even have a Discord channel!) While you're at it, please check out the other threads about the scrolling background that is a CPU devouring monster of a resource hog. Thanks!
In regards to Mesen and run-ahead (run ahead?), the issue may be that it is not viewed as cheating, but a handy tool to "lower" latency. (Doesn't actually lower it but uses hacks - if I should call it that - to cut out any desired number of frames from the equation.) Now I'm not certain if removing only the frames that don't factor into say the character's jumping animation would be entirely undetectable, but perhaps even that single frame would add up across the run to shave "many" frames from a speedrun such as SMB. So, we're in a rather problematic situation rules-wise because there almost aren't any rules for this silly game! At least none related to emulator technicalities. Which also brings us to the issue of keyboard players because let's not forget that we do have a top level keyboard player, and there's not even a shadow of a doubt how much advantage keyboard has over controller users when it comes to competing for WR, but I digress.
Mesen loyalty is simply pointless. It's an actively developed emulator, which means things could change to an unforeseeable degree. The reason why we like our retro speedruns is the rules are set is stone, and therefore no pesky devs patching out glitches and whatnot. :) As far as I'm concerned we should stick to the software that's been proven reliable and accurate enough (SMB community seems to be in favor of it), and that's Nestopia. But apparently Mesen has been hailed as the staple of accuracy and general superbness so much that people are willing to stake their lives in defense of its repute. Preposterous!
At the end of the day we're a rather inactive community with few submissions so it's easy to ignore the looming problems, but if I were you I'd consult the issue both internally amongst the mods and with other communities that had to deal with cheated runs such as the NG1 community and its mod team.
This is in line with other NES communities such as Ninja Gaiden. With the introduction of the new feature "run-ahead" that allows frames to be skipped in order to achieve "lower" latency, Mesen becomes a significant moderation nightmare and a frustration to non-English speakers who would be forced to switch from their favorite settings should they decide to perform attempts with run-ahead enabled, which is likely due to its benefits. (Run-ahead is capable of removing animation frames, thus alter original mechanics &, if my understanding is correct, deduct frames from the total sum of a given speedrun unrelated to human execution.)
As mentioned here (https://www.speedrun.com/battletoads_nes/thread/3quel) entire two years ago (!), the background theme for the page is not resource efficient. Please change it to be static!
No reason to lump two vastly different categories and their unique optimizations together. Separation was the only correct decision here. Nothing dreadful about it whatsoever!
Hi, JC! Glad to see your input on this. Hope the streaming career is going well.
On your keyboard assessment I'm not totally sure if I understand correctly how deeper keystrokes, spring length and hold time factor into it versus a controller, but from what superficial knowledge I've gathered over years, I do recall multiple runners, including BBF, stating quite casually that some techniques in fangames are limited to mech keyboards in terms of consistency. I can't say that I'm an authority on the subject, though. My gripe is using fingers vs thumb.
You are absolutely right about the stalactite jump, which is part of my overall concern that using keyboard you would consistently save many more frames on average at a high level just due to the finger advantage, but the keyboard's precision as well - I imagine missing a doubletap on a tactile mech keyboard is much more rare than on a membrane controller - something with which you had your fair share of issues yourself - Intruder Excluder comes to mind.
So, I'm just going to state this right now: I believe that if keyboard should be separated, it'll be due to these subtle technical advantages that aren't visible to the naked eye. Why? Because it inspires emu players to only get good at keyboard and never switch to a NES controller - not something I can pride myself on admittedly, but it'd be a concern for the community in general. That is not to say that I hate the idea of playing toads on a keyboard since I actually think the game is quite suited for it, but that's also why I think it's important to underscore why keyboard gameplay provides a much different footing to a controller player who is forced play DDR on a d-pad with a lightning fast thumb. The only exception to this might be mashing since (if I'm not wrong on how common/doable this is, which unfornunately I cannot reliably verify) mech keyboards tend to repeat keystrokes much like faulty mice double click, so if I'm imagining the possibilities correctly, with the right peripheral you could double your mashing speed and mash through that infamous wall in caverns.
I'm not entirely certain how you've come to a conclusion that dash jumps are harder on a keyboard, dot3r sure doesn't seem to have any trouble with them. Maybe the one you used just wasn't very well suited for toads, but I'm sure a switch exists that will be massively superior to a membrane controller - if it isn't already utilized by him. Perhaps the issue with keystroke travel could be reduced by applying o-rings? To address whatever subjective problem you had with 1 frame presses on a keyboard.
The 360 controller, no, you couldn't play on it with fingers. You'd give yourself a hand injury. It is a d-pad with membrane rubber and 8 directions much like any other except it's crap out of the box so the common solution was to add the so-called "pringles mod" to it. I also tried a DS3 controller and I found that to be more comfortable in the end albeit both were kind of mediocre. A DS4 is probably a much better choice in the modern controller selection.
I mean, entertaining logical extremes is all fine, but we obviously aren't going to be that anal about it. The argument here is that lumping in keyboard with controller harms the emu community because of the incentives it gives to focus on keyboard mastery rather than controller. What do you think strat advice from a keyboard WR holder is going to be? "Just map WASD and go to town. Controllers suck." - Sounds a tad silly when the original hardware doesn't even allow such peripherals (that is, without a tremendous hassle of engineering one). I always thought playing on a d-pad provided a single unifying factor that helped the community grow and learn strats from each other, and the idea of just switching to keyboard discards that entirely.
So, in closing I'm going to express somewhat a disappointed view that resorting to passivity and inaction is just going to create more disappointment later when very high level keyboard gameplay will be objectively viewed as able to achieve more than controller - at least when it is finally proven to be that with concrete evidence in gameplay when it is produced. It is my honest belief that the precision mechanical keyboards provide as well multiple finger style of control that doesn't cause nearly as much fatigue as on a controller can already be extrapolated on in our minds to see how it provides a definite advantage over thumb. I just don't see how these facts alone, as well as keys on the keyboard not being part of the same piece of plastic and instead being separate buttons that don't sway like a d-pad would, wouldn't be sufficient evidence to make some kind of a decision.
As for listing the advantages to help actually resolve this in ways other than waiting an eternity "to see what happens", I feel that would be a tremendous amount of work. I'd be willing to pitch in, but doing that on my own would be overwhelming. I hope others will contribute. And again, I don't actually think it's reasonable to look for things that only keyboard can do when keyboard can already be a more effective tool, which is the actual root of the problem. Tapping diagonals being one example.
Just like it isn't pointless to mark submissions as emu, which is based on the same logic, it is important to ensure fairness amongst runners. Even if keyboard use may not be immediately transparent in a run, its use is reflected in gameplay and strats utilized, and the resulting consistency and quirks that follow can certainly be called into question.
There's also no need to generalize to the point of paranoia, known facts can be dealt with accordingly, and what is currently unknown may come into light later and also be sorted out.
What we do know is a potential keyboard WR on the way, which begs the question if the community is comfortable with this sort of advantage being allowed as WR or on the main leaderboard. I know I wouldn't be because it isn't fair to controller players and especially console grinders limited to the standard brick controller. It simply wouldn't be a competition on an equal footing if the differences in control were to be considered.
@chryoyo Yea, I'm actually aware SM64 has an emu leaderboard with keyboard players. But, that's exactly it - it's already split into a separate leaderboard. Here we may very well run into a situation where WR becomes keyboard and the only way to compete will be by using keyboard because of its inherent advantages. All of the reasons I mentioned above are valid btw. Especially ledge dashing and even more complex ledge dashing in rat race are both significantly easier. For example in the fangame communities it's widely accepted that mechanical keyboards provide superior precision and basically you'd be a fool not to use a keyboard if wanting to compete seriously. And that's just the regular keyboard over mechanical perspective let alone vs controller. @timmyshotgun I used a wired 360 controller for my 12:47. I played on a d-pad. My gripe is about using multiple fingers and separate buttons for controlling movement. It is hugely advantageous to do so, even for a newbie (just try robo manus juggling if you don't believe me).
Anyway this thread is mostly aimed at sub 14 runners who are experienced with tight tricks such as ledge dashing/reverse headbutting and so on. And especially console runners like JC and TMR as I feel it would be very unfair to them to do WR attempts on keyboard. I would like to hear their thoughts on this. Possible compromise could be to restrict WR/top 3 to controller-only.
Thanks and sorry if this is offensive to you @dot3r but keyboard is an advantage and that is fact. It should be discussed.
So, dot3r is playing on a keyboard. I didn't actually think anyone would speedrun toads at high level not on a controller and d-pad. Is it really fair to compete this way? Obviously, neither am I active nor planning to speedrun this game again, so this isn't something that affects me personally, but it's pretty annoying to think of all the advantages keyboard has over controller and how it affects competing.
I imagine console runners would just go "lol emu", but all of the original hardware bullshit argument aside, keyboard kind of forces every emu runner to play on keyboard because better consistency in general. Like, diagonals suddenly become free, robo manus is 10 times easier because 2 fingers on WASD. In rat race, you can just use 2 index fingers to skip ledges and the consistency is through the roof because 2 separate keys don't wobble like a d-pad... arctic caverns ledge cancelling, etc.
Clearly not fair. I would even consider splitting keyboard to a separate leaderboard, but it would be drastic for a game that has 3 active players. Thoughts?
I see. Well, if it was a TASer who accused him, then the frustration is understandable, but they should've been aware that the game tends to have RNG in unexpected places as the well as plenty of variability in the way the hoverbikes float, which further affects these outcomes. For example, I clearly recall TMR teleporting back to the beginning of Turbo Tunnel one time - which I never experienced myself. If the strat at the time was to simply mash inputs and a bout of luck happened, then it has to be accepted as such - we certainly already know that the game is quite volatile with its coding ( comes to mind).
We have no reason to believe TGR's achievement isn't valid. There's nothing "doubtful" about it compared to what we already know - despite our knowledge being far from complete. I hope TGR realizes taking runs down just because of a random whiner's displeasure only harms the community and reduces the odds of more research ever being done. If you can convey this to him in Russian, then please do if you don't mind.
I contacted him trying to find out what happened, but the language barrier is a problem. I managed to google translate something about haters, and apparently TGR is no longer confident his run is WR? I think it's quite exceptional that he managed to achieve the credits warp on a gut feeling alone, especially with how much effort it took him, and so that should be recognized. Does anyone know anything about the situation? He also says the run was done on Nestopia 1.40, so I can't see how any illegitimacy could be at play.
Just to let you know that I added a list of hotkeys to the guides section as well as adding a bit of info to the rules, so that things are more easily understood. I specified that the timing for segmented should be SDA while keeping the convention lurk used for RTA. I also thought "Any% Real-Time" would be more legible as a category name. Hope that's alright, cheers.
Thank you! As I mentioned under the video, a lot of time has passed, and the route changed many times - both in minor and major ways - especially after discovering cutscene skips. I tried to explain a few of the more significant strats in the description, but going into extreme detail would have been a challenge to say the least. I enabled notifications, so if you or anyone else need help, feel free to make a strats thread just like on speeddemosarchive.
Any activity here? Just a heads up that a new run is out. Questions are welcome if anyone's interested
@ukionik None of those are wrong warps. In both instances you're just activating the trigger that ends the stage you're currently in. My understanding of the "textbook" definition of wrong warping is to use some sort of stage exit and repurpose it to take you somewhere else - thus the "wrong" warp. In the case of credits warping in Battletoads, the game takes you to the ending sequence instead of the intro screen, so the intended action is replaced with the "wrong" one. On the other hand, the intended result of spawning the object that ends the stage is loading the next consecutive level, which is exactly what happens - it's just done earlier than expected.
//edit @CLChambers00 Very good point. I'd just like to add that Rat Race has some very challenging tech right now that jay_cee found about (the ledge dashing), which would be rendered pointless to try for if you had to complete the whole stage with the boss fight included. Not to mention the floor skipping that is frame perfect. The competitiveness of a category like that would be drastically reduced, so unless the demand for it were to explode, such additions would be overall detrimental, I feel.
Waffel, this page is a complete mess. I'd like you to make me a mod, so I can add some common sense stuff like how to time runs (SDA is fine by me, but suggestions are welcome). The categories don't make sense either, and I'd be interested in addressing that. Thanks.
EDIT: Added various stuff including rules. Post here if anything feels off.
Hi, I'd like to request mod status for https://www.speedrun.com/Black_and_White
Asking here since there are no super mods (assuming only those can add regular mods?) for that game, and the page would use cleaning up. I'm one of the two runners of the game.
Sorry to hear the glitch gave you so much trouble.
A lot of the casual runners of this game used to simply hold right after dying for the first time on the bike, and until they died again. That method is sort of a baby strat and probably works around 50% of the time. Very easy to learn, but obviously flawed, so I'll post the two other methods.
For clarification: whether the glitch will be successful depends on the RNG of the hover pattern on the bike (specifically the height at which the bike is positioned at the moment of entering free fall). Since there is no known way to make it consistent in RTA, the idea was to find something that works across most of the patterns.
The old-new method: After respawning, jump near the line in the background in an around 5 frames window. Doesn't have to be too precise, but don't do it too late for optimal results. Then, double tap to dash forward near the edge. The first tap of the double tap is supposed to be done at the same time the bike bottoms out its hover. You just have to make sure you dash forward before the bike starts free falling in its neutral position basically. After that, as you are dashing, press jump when near the bottom of the screen to cancel the dash status on the bike into walking speed (again, a consistency thing).
Unfortunately, sometimes the following thing happens, which results in failure, unless you react and do different inputs instead:
Basically, you just do nothing instead of dashing forward until 0:10. Then, you hold down-right for about half a second.
The new-new method: Work in progress, sort of. Similar, possibly better consistency, and it's no longer needed to react like in the previous setup. Just hold left, jump twice in the same 5 frame window against the background, and hold up for 15 frames or so when near the edge. Tapping forward afterwards seems to help slightly as well, but it's hard to say what's objectively optimal given the random nature of the whole thing.
And that's about it. For reference: 6 frames equals a tenth of a second.
