Hello runners! It's been a few days now since the release of the Master Collection and especially MGS3 has seen plenty of activity and testing from runners. Now is the time to make the move and us mods need your input!

The following questions have come up in the last week, specifically how to deal with MC.

First off, the mods and I agree that it will be smart to finally split up MGS3 as a speedrun game and make new games for the PS2 versions of MGS3 (Snake Eater and Subsistence on different categories, but one MGS3PS2 game), the 3DS version and the MC version. The last point can be up to discussion, but the following reason is why making yet a 4th srdc game for MGS3 MC is useful:

• MGS3 MC is way faster in loads and performance than any iteration of the HDC
• MGS3 on PS3 specifically is still actively run here and there - so keeping HD separate from MC for competitiveness sake can be preferred (your input matters here especially)
• MGS3 PC we have seen great tools come around by @Apel which remove loadtimes from the IGT or RTA comparison and allow for a more even playing field between PC runners. So making a split category for MGS3 MC PC alone is worth it - and if we have MGS3 MC PC already split, might as well make a new game and have both Console and PC as two categories for single segment runs

So the current idea when it comes to game split is as follows:

• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3 Playstation 2
• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D
• NEW Metal Gear Solid 3 Master Collection Version
• Metal Gear Solid 3 turns into Metal Gear Solid 3 HD Version

how these games are going to be set up will be mostly decided by the mods for these new boards. but a current outline can look like this:

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3 PS2

Categories:

• Snake Eater
• Subsistence

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

Additional Optional Subcategory (tbd later):

• platform (PS2, PS2 HDD, BCPS3, Emulator?)

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D

Categories:

• Beat the game (since no other catgory so far exists)

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

Additional Optional Subcategory (tbd later):

• platform (Console, Emulator?)

Game: Metal Gear Solid HD

Categories:

• Any%, Multi-Segment (Alternative, Single-Segment vs Multi-Segment, similar to how MGS4 is set up)

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

The notion is to merge the PS3 and HD Other Categories into one HD category anymore, which would be known then as Any% or Single-Segment.

Game: Metal Gear Solid 3 Master Collection

Categories:

• Console, PC

Subcategories:

• Very Easy
• Easy
• Normal
• Hard
• Extreme
• European Extreme

All older releases will use IGT still as timing method (unless challenged?) to make it easier to transition the runs from this board to the new board. For the Master Collection version timings, your vote matters now. Do you prefer for the PC version of 3 MC the IGT loadless or RTA loadless timing method? Should 3 MC console also use RTA instead of the IGT from the score screen?

You may also wonder why I don't mention HD Emulator. There's a notion to remove the Xenia runs altogether from the HD board, as the intention was back at the start of the year, to make MGS3 in general more accessible. This decision was done before anyone knew that the Master Collection will come out, especially as it wasn't clear that also these games will come out to PC (Steam). Are there objections to this? Do you want to keep the HD Emulator category?

Emulation for the PS2 and 3DS games are also open to be discussed later, once the split has happened. At least for MGS3 on PS2, Apel has a working autosplitter and we know that TheDementedSalad has been working on a more improved robust version of the PS2 autosplitter.

So in conclusion, these are the ideas that are currently flying around, let's discuss and sit down to make a plan forward. Then once we made a decision, the mods can start working on modifying the board and get to add all the new MC runs that have been made since release.

In summary:

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?
• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?
• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?
• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

All other details like which mods should or shouldn't be allowed for MGS3 MC can be discussed later.

Thanks for your patience and attention!

Hau5

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yes it makes sense to me how you want to split it up

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

I think it could stay i don't really care, it was made before anybody knew about MC. But overall it adds categories so why not keeping it ? Or maybe in CE. But anyway i don't really care.

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

Add MC multi-segment cause i want to do some lol.

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

EDIT : I don't vote, I let people chose. I don't care as long as it's loadless.

Good call, Apel suggested for PC he could make it, so that the Credits can be skipped but the time of the credits is still added on top of the IGT. A great quality of life update if that can happen.

I think IGT loadless is a good way to go but i dont mind either way, ill run w/e.

•Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yes

•Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

May as well keep it

•Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

No

•Which Timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

Loadless IGT

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC

Absolutely, however I do not think splitting HD Version and Master Collection is necessary. Both game are “Metal Gear Solid 3 HD Edition”, and there’s no real reason imo why we should have a separated board for that. People running on old hardware would be at a disadvantage, but that’s just how it is.

My suggestion is having Metal Gear Solid 3 HD as one whole board(including Master Collection), and having every single time from past HD versions there.

The board would be split between Console and PC, due to the fact that PC has multiple tools to assist in running such as removing loads which could change the timing method.

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

I agree with the EMU board removal, because of the fact that it was a means for the game to be played on PC, but with the Master Collection out, I don’t see a reason for it existing still.

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

Loadless RTA is the timing method I prefer by a lot. By going with Loadless IGT, we’re directly messing around with the game’s data and it’s just not something I’m comfortable trusting in a Speedrun sense. Also in my testing, the IGT has been known to be jumpy, so I don’t like the notion of my IGT being messed up due to that.

I've only done a handful of mgs3 runs on MC PC but I'll throw in my two cents

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

yes

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

If it's already there, I see no harm in keeping it since it's already separated. But I haven't ran emu or have any interest in it.....so take that with a grain of salt

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

I do think that the MC Console and HD Other board could be merged, since HD other is mostly ran on newer xbox's due to backwards compatibility, it's probably on par with running MC. PS3 should still be on its own imo with how much of a disadvantage it has due to load times, with the MC PS3 runs will likely become obsolete anyway so it likely won't matter much. I don't see a reason to bury those runs in with current console runs. But PC MC obviously needs to be separated. Easiest way imo would be to leave the boards as is and just have a new MC category as planned(?). But I don't see a reason to merge ps3 and other unless it's just to clean up the board a little. Either way, that's just a suggestion

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

I'm fine with either method. But if I had to choose, I'd prefer loadless IGT so livesplit and the score screen match. Although I understand any concern one would have with actually affecting the game data itself to do so. As long as it's loadless I'm cool with it

I only really care about the timing method for 3 PC, and I’d vote for RTA with loads removed. I prefer the IGT at the score screen being untouched. I wanna be able to somewhat compare times w/ loads between PC and console, and see just how much a person saved off loads alone.

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC? Yes
• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal? I have no opinion on this, keep it if people want it :)
• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups? None i can think of right now
• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA? I think Loadless igt but im also fine with RTA

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

To a degree, yes.

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

I have no strong opinions.

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

1. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater/Subsistence (PS2)
2. Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 3D (3DS)
3. Metal Gear Solid 3: HD Edition (PC/PS3/PS4/PS5/Xbox 360/Xbox Series/Switch/PS Vita)

1 and 2 are self explanatory and will be easy to set up. 3 can be split up amongst Master Collection and HDC. Sub categories being (PC or Console for Master Collection) and (Console or Emulator for HDC)

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

RTA as long as it takes out loads to leave a level playing field. This will also be future proofing for the potential of credits skip.

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yup, I'm fine keeping MC on the HD board, that's what it basically is or to split it off. If MC and HD stay on the same board, either split via those 2 releases or split via console generation + PC maybe?

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

I don't need it, but it can stay for all I care. Free category that doesn't require watching the credits.

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

nopers.

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

Loadless RTA with going to score screen. I don't like the idea of manipulating the games internal data like that. To me, same Idea as Xenia runs, finish after final input (ideally something visual like the cancel of the final save prompt), no need to go to score screen unless you want to submit a run. So anyone who basically doesn't run Foxhound just submits "No Rank".

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yes

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

Disagree, Emu should stay imo

Indifferent on the other two

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC? -- Yes!

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal? -- I disagree, I don't run the category but others might want to.

• Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups? -- Not now thanks.

• Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA? -- Loadless IGT

Thank you for the work!

Do you agree or disagree with HD Emulator board removal? Disagree, it'll just be its own category.

Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA? Loadless RTA, keep the score screen untouched and require runs to finish at score screen. That way, we can compare times with something more fair like loadless RTA but still have the original score screen intact (for future proofing runs).

Other two questions I'm indifferent.

I think it's ridiculous to allow Loadless IGT and mess with the game when the option to use Loadless RTA is right there

Loadless RTA also makes The Sorrow fight actually interesting in multiple categories.

We should not be messing with the game's score screen. The goal of a load remover is to make competition between runners fair. Loadless RTA achieves this.

So far it's 6 for IGT and 6 for RTA... Actually 5 for IGT and 6 for RTA cause I'd like to change my vote.

After thinking about it, I will abstain from voting. I think both are valids, and I understand concern from people about messing with game's datas. So I vote for none of them and whatever of them gets the final vote I'd be happy anyway since it's loadless and 100% fair to everyone racing the game.

Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

No

Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

Keep emulation

Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

MASTER COLLECTION, HD COLLECTION, HD COLLECTION (EMULATOR), PS2/BCPS3, SNAKE EATER 3D

Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

Loadless IGT

• Do you agree with the Game Split for SRDC?

Yes

• Do you agree or disagree with the HD Emulator board removal?

  I didnt have much input with Xenia either way, but I would agree to remove if there's a consensus to do so. 
  
  An alternative could be to give its own section for MGS3 HD Edition as other or something.
  

Do you have suggestions towards the new category setups?

 No

Which timing method do you prefer specifically for MGS3 MC PC - Loadless IGT or RTA?

 I've been running PS5 and Switch versions of MGS3 mostly so I dont know whats currently favored atm.
 I'd prefer IGT score screens whenever possible. 

 If there's proven elements to challenge IGT score screen accuracy (like with MGS2 V's fix cause of fast credits) then I would be fine with loadless RTA as the alternative.

It's been roughly 3 days since the post has been started, I think everyone who wanted to make a comment did so. I talked to Verm and we both agree that we'll put in our mod hats and basically decide that MGS3 PC MC will use RTA loadless as a time measurement tool and we'll go to the score screen for now. Leaving the original IGT intact as is.

The HD boards will be remodelled and the HD Edition Emu Board will remain but gets renamed to just Emulator. MC runs will go to the HD board, as MC is just an improved update to the HD release.

In regards to the concrete category setups of each of the current and new games I decided we'll go the MGS4 route. We have Single Segment + Multi Segment categories for each of the 3 releases and so what will be baseline moving forward is as follows:

PS2 game gets added, 3DS game gets added all of them get the Category: Single Segment / Multi Segment

MS will be just a container, no difficulty split anymore, no platform split

Single Segment will be further divided

HD/MC:

• Platorm - Console / PC / Emulator
• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme

PS2:

• Release - Snake Eater / Subsistence
• Platforms - we'll stick to just console for now, PS2 and BCPS3 on the same board, later we can split those two and also consider PCXS2 Emulation as 3rd platform. More testing and time is needed to make an educated decision here. So for starters every platform is just submitted as is
• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme

3DS:

• Difficulty - Very Easy / Easy / Normal / Hard / Extreme / European Extreme
• Emulation can be discussed at a later point in time. I'll work out with Brakk0n and who else wants to to design a decent 3DS board once the main split is done.

I won't be able to start right away with that setup but will do so tomorrow on Saturday. So if you have strong arguments to bring forward, let me know. Especially in regards to that SS vs MS setup. To me that's the best way forward for now, but hey, maybe I overlooked an option.

Hau5