I was thinking of this as a subcategory after seeing how big out of bounds is for running this game, what if we had an "In Bounds" category? Just to give those who don't want to learn Out of Bounds a category to run?

Prey (2017) has a "no OoB" category so I guess it would be okay to have one here as well. https://www.speedrun.com/prey2017#Any

The only objection I would have to a "Any% no Oob" category would be the redundancy with some other categories. Without an out of bounds, you have to get all ribbons in Harbour to get out to Indus Center, then get all 8 ribbons (depending on the version, on redux there is a trick to get to village without going out of bounds) to get to Village through the music box (after the 4 minute Return to Devlin cutscene). After that you'd have to get all 8 Village ribbons to get to the end. That would basically be a All Ribbons except Brimclif's, no ?

A "glitchless Any%" would be more appropriate I guess, but it'd be boring as hell. And it would still be close to "All Ribbons" but with a lot of walking and waiting for cutscenes.

I'd be more down for a Glitchless category. That way, we can also justify the no softlock and softlock endings to any%. Since there is a way in Redux to get from Indus to Village without going through the music box cutscene I guess redux would be the more favoured version. who knows ?

What do you think ?

Well, as it was, the different "In Bounds" categories before we found all these OOBs still had different routes to look at and had potential to change up enough to feel different, All Ribbons and Any% were definitely super similar to the point I didn't care much about the categories, but we are finding a LOT of OOBs and I could see it being overwhelming to anyone who would want to join in on the fun.

I don't know, I would just see them as like a "tutorial" subcategory, basically.

I don't mind. We can add it and talk about it again after a while to see if it is still relevant compared to other categories once a few runs have been completed. If it isn't, nothing prevents us from removing it down the road.

That's true.

By the way, might as well post it here since this is on topic:

Meme run idea: This is a meme run done on the DRM-free Redux (version 1.0 ?) of the game available on GOG and Humble Store. The game is completely glitched and so bugged out of its mind that you can "infinite jump" and pretty fly out of the map. Unfortunately, this meme run dies (at the moment) when the game crashes as it tries to load one of the last cutscenes. So you can't finish the game. I haven't abandonned this version just yet. I'm trying to find a way to avoid the crash.

edit: I deleted the thread that was dedicated to it, since your "Category ideas" thread is quite a broad subject and encompasses mine.

If you do manage to find a way to make the DRM version work, I'm gonna have to separate that too, because holy crap, that flying seems so unfair XD

As for your Manofsteel%, I'd love to make a meme category board for this game, but I think we need more runners before they allow us if Dream is any indicator.

Okay @Doodletones so we've talked at length about how to name categories and what is allowed or not in this game. A few weeks ago, you suggested that if I was to find a major glitch other than the softlock at the end of the "Softlock" runs, we could do as follow:

• Ether One Any% (finish the game as fast as possible by any means necessary) : current Any% softlock + newly discovered glitch
• Ether One Glitchless (finish the game without using glitches) : current "Cutscene" route.

One thing that bothers me though with the way you currently stop the timer in Cutscene (glitchless). You stop your timer at the end of the cutscene which you know, fair enough, makes some sense. However, what would make more sense to me is stopping the timer when you enter the chair (last player input). You know the timing at which you are supposed to sit in the chair to avoid the softlock: basically when Jean interrupts herself to say "It's time we face this". What I would suggest is, stop the timer when you click on the chair. If the cutscene starts, the run is valid. If it doesn't, it's invalid. As simple as that.

I'm suggesting that Doodle because I've watched your runs, and the way you end the timer is inconsistent (rewatch your "Cutscene" and "Inbounds" runs where you end the run at different moments). It's like there are 4 ways to stop a timer in this game and it shouldn't be the case.

I'm suggesting this because you'd only have one way of stopping the timer: CLICKING ON THE CHAIR. That would work in Softlock, Cutscene, Redux and In-bounds. The only thing is to avoid the softlock in "Cutscene" and "In-bounds" that's it. But for all 4 categories, the common end of the run would be the last input.

What do you think ? It makes perfect sense, no ? As a side note, for "Cutscene/Glitchless" the cutscene would - of course - have to appear in the submission, even though the timer stopped, as to properly confirm the validity of the run. . . . Now, regarding the new major Devlin save/load collision glitch.

I managed to find a new major skip in Devlin Mine saving around a minute and 40 seconds. The objective was to find a way OoB in the Devlin Mine level and go hit the cutscene trigger that's out of bounds in the Pinwheel Village area (something that's already possible in the Redux version of the game).

Messing around with the quick save/quick load features on top of one of the presses in Devlin Mine, the game loaded me outside the map. My guess regarding how it works is that there is a collision conflict when standing on top of the press. Your hitbox might be squished too much for the game. So when you save and reload, the game checks if there is room for your character hitbox to be spawned in where you last saved. The game is confused because you've squished your hitbox where it's not supposed to be, so the game resolves that conflict by teleporting you to outside the map. The point where you get teleported is the same every time, which leads me to think it's the standard, original 0.0.0 coordinates within this given map.

I still don't know if I'm yet fully convinced by the timer change, I suppose for In-Bounds, maybe, but there's still not yet enough of a difference in Any% (Softlock) and Glitchless (Cutscene) to justify adapting the timing method. That said, this Quick Load Wrong Warp can definitely change Cutscene to Glitchless because now there's actually a glitch to avoid outside of the tail end softlock glitch.

Roger that. I'll update the names and the rules for these categories.

About the timing thing, you say "there is not yet enough of a difference between Any% and Glitchless" but now there is a 1:40 time difference between the two (don't know if you meant "time difference" or something else I didn't get).

I'm looking at both timer and route here, because they are essentially the same run still, just now with a singular BIG time save, which... is a GREAT START, don't get me wrong, but I don't think entirely fixes the main problem we have regarding the two runs. XD

I'm sure we'll get there in due time though, I've been looking for Projector glitches myself as glitchless leaks into other categories.

Okay okay.

One more interrogation I had. Should we take a look at removing load times from our times ? Or is it something we shall worry about once there are more people running the game ? I don't think we need that right now, but it could be more fair. That would require more work however.

I'd be totally down to remove load times actually, problem is, I don't know how to make a timer that does that automatically, and it would be too much a hassle to do it manually, but there's no argument here if we can manage to make it work.

That would have to be manually. That would be a hassle but I don't have the intellectual means to build such an automated tool.

Okay what we could do is calculate load times manually on two videos. One of mine and one of yours on similar graphics settings. If the difference is too big then we should add a "w/o load" sub-parameter in the leaderboards (I know this is done quite often in other games).

Here are my settings: The graphics settings are on LOW Resolution: 1920x1080. AA: off Vsync: off Framerate: uncapped Motion blur: off Ambient occlusion: off Draw distance is 2 ticks before max (the game looks like shit if you don't have a decent enough draw distance).

ps: what do you think of the new skip by the way ?

I, honestly would rather wait until we can figure out how to make an auto-timer for this myself ^^; I know some people who might be able to help, I've just never thought to ask them about a game they've never played.

As far as the new skip, it's very interesting and I think could lead to some skips elsewhere... maybe, as crushers do exist elsewhere in the game, I think it'd be worth playing with later when I have the time, presuming you don't get to it before me. XD

Hi ! As you already know I'm running for two "websites" at the same time. I was considering submitted one of my Any% runs to SDA for posterity and they told me that they only counter ingame time, and removed load times so as to be fair to everyone. We've already talked about it a few days ago and I'd like to add the possibility to include "w/o loads" in our leaderboards (see example: https://www.speedrun.com/dxhr)

I'm telling you this because there are some strats that are faster if you exclude load times, and that's just neat, that's optimization right there. I live for this stuff, and I'd like for both sites to get the best out of the game.

Even if you don't want to make it the default standard (for whatever reason), it would be greatly appreciated if I could use that feature.

I just want this game to be optimized, I want it to have the best times possible. I don't want to leave that game (I'm gonna have to very soon) with some half assed run :D

I'm going to run the game with the new (w/o loads) strats in order to submit it to SDA and get it archived.

I said I'd be down to remove load times if we can get a auto timer for the game. manual removal of load times is too inconsistent and results will vary person to person.

I'm actually currently looking for a method to remove load times automatically utilizing the timer, for both Dream AND Ether One, so that may be in our future. For NOW though? I think it's best we just keep it simple. ^^

Removing load times isn't actually that much work and is pretty consistent. To be honest I thought it would be harder, but it actually isn't. Using any video editing software and going frame by frame to count load time out is quite simple.

I will only do it for my runs and for Any% categories, because it IS a hassle the longer the video.

If you manage to find someone who'd be able to create an auto timer that would of course be the most optimal solution. In the meantime, I've enabled "w/o loads" on the leaderboards. It will give an idea of what optimal times look like with the fastest strats.

My most compelling argument is that I'm future proofing my runs. It won't be a compulsory requirement though. Remember that I'm running for another website that only times runs excluding loads (they calculate the time like I did, going frame by frame to time loads and remove them from the final time).

having that option available without making it compulsory is a good compromise don't you think ? A good compromise is a compromise that leaves both parties unsatisfied, am I right ?