I've never seen Battletoads played on that system, so I don't know if there's any known advantages. Could you post some gameplay of a few stages?

whoops, double-posted

Hi all. First of all to WorstLiarEver, I'm sorry about this. It wasn't made clear to you, and we're just now realizing that today's conventional standards aren't the same as before. Back when this leaderboard was first put up, it was clear to everyone that cheat codes are not generally accepted in speedruns. As of recent, this isn't as clear anymore. We'll put it in the rules to make it clear.

As for reinstating your run, I'm afraid I can't agree to do that for one very unlucky reason. At the end of your run, the dark queen took enough lives from you that you reached 1 life heart remaining, which is just barely past the game over threshold of a no-code run. Had it been 2, I would have petitioned in favor of bringing it back with a mod note explaining the exception on your run. I know that is a tough break, but if it means anything, I know you can easily do it again without the code if you're willing.

Ukionik, thank you for keeping up with submitted runs. I didn't realize it was just you holding this up until now. Please keep moderating, you're doing great work here.

For that one, we allow it because the camera still displays the full path. I understand that it skips past some platforms and hazards, but we've ultimately ruled on not letting the enemies, items, platforms or hazards dictate how fast we're allowed to go. Only the camera.

I'll use level 8 as an example of why, since it is virtually similar to Rat Race except it goes up instead of down. if the rules said we had to touch the intended platforms on the way up, we'd have to debate too many specific jumps in a way that I believe would ruin the experience.

Earlier, I was watching a runner use the 5-life code, and I told him the run probably won't be accepted with the code. I assumed as much, since this had been the case for decades.

But he told me something that shocked me. "The rules don't say that." - I had to go check, and he's right.

I just want to make sure if we're in agreement. Is the 5-life code actually banned, or merely frowned upon?

negativ4k has a point, although I would say the point equally applies just as much with both names. When I'm running either category, I'm asked to explain the difference between 100% and Warpless all the time. I don't see how 'All Stages' would be any different.

It would be nice if we had a name that could fix this discrepancy as well, but I'm out of ideas on what that could be.

I know I've been on a bit of a rampage through the category layout changes, but one more thing has been nagging my head. After switching out of "No Wrong Warp" over confusion regarding the colloquial vs. technical definition of a warp, this confusion still remains in the "Warpless" category. This name was invented in the SDA days, before the turbo tunnel skip existed.

Again, I know the turbo tunnel skip is not technically a warp, but out of respect for anybody who might be confused about it, I'd like to suggest a more palatable alternative: the "All Stages" category. As before, I'll give it a little time before changing the name, in case anyone's opposed to it.

Yes or no?

Correct me if I'm wrong. Do we all use the same start frame?

Our rules say that frame 1 begins on the first frame controlling Rash. If I'm not mistaken, we've been deciding frame 1 in runs based on the first frame touching the ground.

I've confirmed on Bizhawk that you are influencing Rash sooner than this frame. The simple proof is that you can press B to punch several frames sooner, while you are still airborne. But even in the movement alone, the reason it takes a while to turn around while holding down & left is because there is rightward momentum as the player lets go of the rope. It's not so visible to the naked eye, but there is in fact influence happening in those airborne frames, which I've further confirmed by doing frame counts pressing left on different airborne frames and getting different results.

We can safely use the first frame Rash lets go of the rope as a viable start frame, since that is the earliest frame we're able to influence. It's not a big deal, but we might need to shift the milliseconds on our runs to be a few frames slower, at least in the future.

I can't recall if this was my choice or not. I added the category myself, but I assume there was good reason for one of us to put it in the miscellaneous tab. If that was me, I don't know why I did that and I apologize, but I don't remember doing that.

That said, I feel as though there should be recognition on the main listing for what is technically the fastest category of Battletoads. That is the point of this leaderboard after all.

I think additionally, to not draw as many eyes to it as the main category, I'll rename it to Any% (Credits Warp).

I thought it was fair to ask here first. Does all that sound okay?

I've thought about this recently too Ukionik. I'm really glad you brought this up.

TL;DR The reason we disallowed that 3-spike column skip is because in doing so, you're not displaying the full path of the game at least somewhere on the screen. But this logic also has its problems, which is why I'm somewhat reconsidering on whether to lift the ban myself, and I'll get into that in a bit. (After the .............................. part)

I'll get the backstory out of the way, since the timeline of decisions that led to this category's current status is pretty interesting.

Actually to answer your last part, the logic of the category was to show up the haters. :) To make the Cuphead reference, our 100% category is the Hater% of Battletoads. Before 100% existed, TMR & I would get negative comments about our skips, complaining that our hard work was not impressive because some difficult content was being skipped. While this is hilarious to anyone who knows the difficulty of actually performing these skips in comparison to playing without them, we felt that simply responding in words was not enough. So now we have this category as a hilarious in-joke proving how backward their logic was, since pleasing them turned out to make the run way easier, not harder. :)

So, little by little, we discussed all the things to keep in the run. The spinner skips, the 1ups, the weapons, the double dash jump, the top final section of arctic cavern, everything that seems obvious now was debatable back then. The spike skips in Terra Tubes were particularly more difficult for the two of us to discuss. Originally, I wanted to ban all of them. That means banning the pixel skip, the 3-spike column skip of section 3, the 2-spike column skip in section 5, AND the lesser talked about 1 spike skip at the end of section 3, right before the checkpoint. But TMR made a point that I liked. "It's the same path, it's just going under a spike instead of over!" I couldn't argue with that.

But we still disallowed the 3-spike column skip. Why? I guess it's because it looks so much more like a real skipping of content than the others. That awkward jump out of the water at the top is actually not easy, and we definitely could see the possibility of someone complaining about it. But it's not exactly a good thing simply to base a rule on what something 'looks like'.

So we deliberated further on what to call the 'official' rule, since we were racing each other for fun at the time and we kept finding these questionable tiny things to squabble about. We were still doing the spinner skips after all, and both of us refused to take them since they were clearly more impressive-looking to skip. And we weren't picking up all the lives or all the weapons. So what would 100% be? 100% of what exactly? What are 100% of the things the haters care about?

Then the idea came. Just show all of the locations of the intended path through the game on screen. It made sense of why we were disallowing the 3-spike column skip, and why we were allowing the others, all the while allowing us to do our spinner skips and 1up skips & weapon skips we were already doing. It was brilliant.

.............................................

Now, the problem I've noticed since then -- First of all, if you just look closely at warpless or any% right there, as you swim up on the left, the location being bypassed IS being shown on screen in the top right corner! Sort of... well, more like 'sometimes'. And only just barely. You have to swim pretty specifically to make it happen, but it absolutely can and does happen.

Second, even if this weren't the case, what's stopping us from simply doing the spike skip and swimming upwards a little bit to show above the top spike and swim back down? Well, I would probably argue today that it doesn't fit the theme of 'pleasing the haters' by not doing that awkward jump out of the water. But then that wouldn't be a very solid argument, since it changes the official rule that justifies our decisions, and 'pleasing the haters' is an awful catalyst for official rulemaking, since we can't read minds.

But while it doesn't change that it was our main goal in the beginning, I'm willing to accept that this is not the case today, as it's become our 2nd most competitive category now. The same is happening to the Hater% of Cuphead, which I find hilarious as well.

So that is why I'm reconsidering it, but I'm not fully decided. It would be great if we could get a few more opinions on this, if anybody has any thoughts. It's a big decision at this point, since all of the existing runs would be at a 3-second handicap. But at least it doesn't render any existing runs invalid, which would be the case if this situation were the inverse, such as banning a previously-allowed skip. Thankfully this is the much lesser evil.

That's about the full story. What do you think?

Alright, it's done! I gave it a month for folks to deliberate, and I've changed the main category name. Enjoy the "Any% No Credits Warp" category everybody. :)

Nah, as far as I know nobody's made a discord or website for Battletoads strategies. It's just this forum.

As for co-op turbo tunnel skip, I'm almost certain there's a set of inputs to get it, we just haven't found out what it is. I've done it once on accident while searching, but could never recreate it and have no idea what I did.

Also, there's a similar skip that exists in level 5. Same deal, I've made the skip happen once but I have no idea what I did.

I've given up at both levels. But the search can continue for whoever's interested in looking at it. The sky is the limit on what you can try, and I guarantee we haven't tried everything.

Here's an example of the surf city glitch with TAS inputs:

The initial setup is easily reproducible. Simply have one toad sit still and the other grab a board and bounce left between the logs and water. Once you're in the glitch screen, the TAS skip is what occurs by simply spamming up+left+down+right+A+B+Start+Select every other frame (which is also what the TAS does in the turbo tunnel.) While this isn't possible in real-time, I'm confident there must be a web of consistent real-time inputs that can exist to navigate there. We just have to find them.

I don't know if anyone's fully fleshed out the proof of this, but I'm fairly sure it's caused by sprite limit. The gear is made up of 4 sprites. Every robot you leave alive shoots more lasers, which are fully recognized by the game whether they're on screen or not, so they cause half of the gear sprites to spawn instead of all. Why this causes it not to move, that I don't know.

The good news is yes, you can get a consistent full spawn. Since the robots shoot the lasers at the same exact time every time, all you need is to perfectly execute your route. Reach the checkpoint within a certain timing window without any slip-ups, and you should get a consistent spawn. If a perfect run is still getting a half-spawn, there may need to be a strat change somewhere.

And don't feel bad if it doesn't work. Between 2010-2013, before we found the good window, we were getting half spawns about 50% of the time, and several of the world records back then got a half spawn. Dying on the left spikes is a pretty quick backup, so it's not a huge worry unless you're at zero lives.

Hi all! I would like to pull off an old bandage real quick, and ask if we've remained consistent on the name of this category.

Many of us in the first discussions to the change were considering 'No credits warp' as a suitable name, but with some deliberation, we ultimately decided 'No wrong warp' was a better way to filter out any potential future wrong warp discoveries that didn't take us to the credits, but merely to a late stage. It was still a new trick after all, and the possibilities were endless.

The problem: It's been 5 years now, and that never happened. So I think that fear was unfounded.

But with 'No wrong warp', the other problem very much exists: the confusion. And that's what's making me reconsider. Newcomers will see me in attempts taking the bikes to a glitch world, seeing a whole lot of 'wrong' happening, and seemingly 'warping' to stage 4. Inevitably, I get this question: "Isn't that a wrong warp?"

And you know, it's perfectly understandable that they're asking this question. I know it's not really a warp, and I'm happy to explain why it's not really a warp. But it certainly looks like one to someone not familiar with the technicality of what's happening. And that is what's making me consider 'No credits warp' a more suitable name, just to make it more palatable to more people.

What do you all think? Is it fine the way it is, or should we change it?

Ah thank you. I'm curious if this run were #1, what would the community decision be?

I've been dreading bringing this up for years.

TL;DR the question is at the bottom.

So a few years ago, Koh1dendy came up with this:

Despite there not quite yet being the possibility of the floor clip in stage 4 with Zitz, the stick we can materialize with him makes it still considerably faster than our current WR with Rash.

Koh has also proven several times it can be done in single-segment RTA:

The problem is it is much, much rarer for a run to finish. I recall Koh said the turbo tunnel skip with Zitz is triple frame perfect, and that there's a 9 out of 10 chance the game will crash in stage 9 with the standard out-of-bounds trick. So the only reason the top players haven't done this yet is because we simply haven't had the balls.

But then this raises the issue about the two toads having two different properties, thus arguably being two different runs. Which, of course, raises the question about whether it would deserve its own category.

So since we've never really had this discussion in an open forum, I ask you all if we could discuss and possibly form a conclusion --

If somebody were to beat the current WR with Zitz using the stick in stage 4, should that run be placed in our single main category alongside Rash runs, or do we create two separate categories for the two toads?

Hello. I haven't been on in a while but I've been asked to check out this thread. Tionic, it is great to see you again!

I have my agreements and disagreements. My first thought is it should at least be acknowledged that the standard PC or mechanical keyboard has its disadvantages too. Deeper keystrokes, longer springs, less precise hold time. For example, ask the same IWBTG fangame community if 1-frame jumps are easier on controller or keyboard without the jump-cancel trick, and I think they'll agree the controller has the upper hand there due to the shorter overall movement of the button. I've asked this to yoyoyodude1, and he says even 2 frames are free in comparison on controller. And for another example, ask the contra emu runners if they'd rather mash a mechanical keyboard button or the B button on the nes controller. I'll get into battletoads-specific things in a moment, but I just wanted to acknowledge off the bat that the keyboard isn't solely advantageous, and shouldn't be propped up as such.

But the advantages listed are true too. Quicker directional switches, which can help with the pause-dash trick and the ledge-dashes in arctic cavern, as you can probably hold the run button for longer before switching, saving what I assume is at least a frame or two on average per ledge. I won't deny, that's at least a few frames of advantage. The rat race ledges however - I don't need the A or B keys in rat race, so my technique has always been to just put two thumbs on the d-pad. I don't see how the keyboard holds an advantage over me there.

Actually, one part in particular I think holds a pretty good edge on keyboard is the stalactite jump at the end of arctic cavern. Coming out of a crouch and doing a dash jump to the barrier saves roughly 10 frames by my count over a regular jump, and I gotta tell you, this trick is very tough on the d-pad, but effortless in comparison on the keyboard. If there's any point of contention, I think this is the largest one in the game that I've seen.

We in fact had this discussion back in early 2013, when I was still brand new to twitch and TMR was still using keyboard & emulator. We weren't going for the dash jump during the stalactite jump, but TMR developed the first of what I would call a controversial technique on keyboard. In order to make the jump easier, he would use the crouch-dash along the moving platform before jumping off of it, making the stalactite jump a lot easier. (That is, down to down-right to down to down-right in quick succession to slide along the platform a bit further before jumping.) I mentioned how much harder this is to do on controller, and he agreed to simply do the run without using the crouch-slide there. The discussion ended there, but then we were the only two runners at the time, so it's fair to say we just swept it under the rug.

The disadvantages of the keyboard specific to battletoads are more mechanic-related. The longer keystrokes makes pressing two buttons on the same frame a bit harder. Not excruciatingly harder, but there's enough dash jumps in the game that I think the consistency average is a relevant subtopic in itself. There's also the issue of one-frame jumps being tougher as I mentioned before, and this is relevant in the out-of-bounds section of terra tubes. That final horizontal swim-stroke squeezing between the two in-bounds sections above and below you is pretty tough, and I've seen more runs die there than any other part in that section with every runner I've watched. My strat there is to try to do a one-frame A press, which I've confirmed yields a smaller swim-stroke than a two-frame A press, giving that swim-stroke a slightly larger timing window. I'm really, really good at one-frame taps on controller... yet I still mistime that swim sometimes. Having to do that with a much longer keystroke every run would frighten me.

Aside from that, I have the logistical problem. It's just a third-party controller, and it's impossible to define it as anything but that. You've told me yourself the disc d-pad on your 360 controller helped you out a little, at least in personal preference. It may not be significant, but then really neither is this. I know I could bring the main category to a 12:2x if I wanted, so I know we're not at that point yet. And I could argue myself that the original controller hurts my hands & thumbs more, therefore making the case that all other controllers should be separate. I mean if it hurts less it means you can practice longer right? That is of course taking it to its logical extreme. And then on top of that it's not impossible to use your controller like a keyboard. Set the controller down, put two fingers on the dpad & two fingers on the face buttons (the NES Speedboard comes to mind), and bam, you're playing on an original controller with all the advantages of the keyboard you just listed.

That is of course not to shut down the discussion. There may one day be something significant we can only describe as a keyboard-friendly trick, so it's fair to entertain the discussion now, but I feel like that day hasn't come yet. I'll wait until then before I think it warrants a possible policy change. Even then, I'd wait a little while longer to see if anyone can prove otherwise on a controller, to which I may likely volunteer.

For now, it's good to bounce ideas around and make sure of what we conclude in a neutral way. List all advantages and disadvantages we can think of, tally them up, and see which one comes out on top, give-or-take for all the things we didn't think of. But the proof is in the pudding, and right now it's hard to make the case when it's just one guy. And besides, no record is forever. I expect to lose all of mine one day.

And two quick messages for dot3r -- First of all congrats on the 12:44. Second, this is why I switched to original console/controller, because I knew this discussion would come up one day. :) I'd say give the original hardware a shot. It doesn't take too long to get used to. It took me about 4 days of practice before I was as good on console as I was on emulator.

I'm impressed! This is useful for all levels of play.

I can't seem to view my video on here or twitch. Just making sure it's not just me. Won't let me export to youtube either. Hope it's not gone forever...