I know AsneL was working on it recently and he was also having issues reaching 5000pts, despite following the guides. I don't know if he ever figured it out... He DM'd me a few weeks ago asking me some questions, most of which I didn't have the answer for.

He did end up finding a way to manipulate the event where a firefighter dies: https://twitter.com/asnel49/status/1391355056444755968

LMAO that second one is amazing

looking at the attempt counter, it seems these incidents happened back to back? I can't help but think this could be a crooked cart thing.

no decision towards disabling bonuses?

cool TAS Shadenk :>

Hey all,

NES and PC runs will be kept separate from now on. Merging the two versions was probably not a great idea, the platforms are far too different to be judged on an even level, no matter how similar the games appear on the surface.

cheers :>

In case you missed it in the guides section: http://nudua.com/files/hebereke.pdf

If you saw this already, sorry if I don't have anything to add to it. I don't think there's any secret beyond what's written in the guide, it's just a difficult trick at first. The only extra tip I could share from watching Joni's run just now is he uses the same hand to do the 3 simultaneous inputs (down+right+jump). That seems kind of awkward to me personally but it works for him.

I could be wrong but IIRC, the first wall jump could take you 15 or 20 tries, it'd still be faster than the old Shades route. I can't find any run on the boards that demonstrates that route anymore (pretty sure there was one until recently). As for tree skip, is that even necessary? To be honest, I can't remember but I feel like you can just go around at the cost of a few seconds.

Hey guys,

don't hesitate to join this discord server if you wanna discuss the speedrun, strategies, and share info. It's been used as a hub for SNES and Arcade versions, I just didn't think of posting an invite in here (oops).

Here you go -> https://discord.gg/z5m996 <-

Cool video :> So this proves there's a minor difference in the movement mechanics/controls. There might also be a couple more minor level design differences like the missing block in veni vidi vici over the course of the game if we look properly. Other small thing I could note from this is the bouncy balls in the NES version bounce a bit faster.

You're trying to convince me they should be separate, right? I'm starting to think maybe they should. hehe

Alright fellas, you can add your runs alongside the NES runs!

Again, this is only tentative and if anyone comes up with a solid reason why the two versions should be kept separate, definately let us know. As of now, I consider both equal in speed and with no real difference past cosmetics, so I'm fairly convinced this is a good way to proceed with flash version runs.

Cheers :>

Actually, teaparty's runs are infact both on the same version. The only thing that differs is the aspect ratio (stretched to 16:9 for his any% run). I also noticed the difference at the end where the timer keeps running after the escape, but I didn't quite bother mentionning it because, as I said, RTA is really the only reasonable way we can compare these runs. As for the timer in his 16 bags run, it reflects what I said about his any% run (more or less accurate until escape). He isn't 25s ahead entering escape, and he doesn't end with an 11s difference (it's a ~40s difference, as indicated in his video title). I'm not sure where you got those numbers, but that doesn't matter.

People don't have to pick the faster version, because there is no faster version, just one that has a faster in-game timer. The two versions you guys have presented me offer identical gameplay speed, so we can compare them on an even level by using RTA timing. Now, whether PC performance is an issue or not is beyond me (that's why I don't run PC games) but I assume it isn't. What's sure is we will not use IGT if it isn't consistant across versions.

Irrelevant at this point but just to clarify, it seems that the IGT in the version teaparty plays on also doesn't fully account for transition frames. It seems to be nearly accurate for transitions exiting a stage, but not entering the next one, gaining him ~0.3s on each of those. It's not nearly as bad as the Kongregate version, where you gain ~1s on every single transition, but this explains why he enters escape about 2s ahead of his livesplit timer.

Nice runs, guys :>

Here's the breakdown: If you use NES version as a baseline, IGT and RTA in this game should be extremely close, if not identical. I'm not sure exactly and it's impossible to tell without a 60fps recording, which I don't have currently, but it's definately within a few fractions of a second. Now...

@dha , your version of the game's IGT doesn't account for transition frames. You gain about 11 seconds over RTA timing due to that. @teapartycthulu , your version of the game's IGT does, and matches the NES pretty much perfectly up until the escape sequence, where the timer appears to be going twice as fast (*the gameplay speed is not affected). The amount you lose in IGT is pretty much only that segment where the timer is faulty.

Other than that, the gameplay speed appears to be identical in both flash versions and NES version -- did some rough testing counting frames during a long walk animation, which was convincing enough for me.

So good and bad news. We can definately accept flash runs on this leaderboards but ditching IGT is absolutely necessary. I really don't see why this version of the game shouldn't have it's own category at least. I'm actually considering having both NES & flash versions together on the same board but I'll need to gather people's opinion.

Hey, I looked into it and it might make sense to make Flash version a different category on this board. The game is different, but I guess not different enough to warrant a different board. There's also the fact that the Flash version is the original version.

Although, I would like to ask: would you not rather compete on the NES version, on an emulator? I don't know how much effort you've already put in the game and I'll respect if you say you've had your fun and you're done with it, but since it's the exact same game and it would be played the same way (on keyboard, I assume), I just thought I'd ask. I don't necessarily want to discourage people from submitting runs on the Flash version but I like the idea of keeping any% runs of what is essentially the same game together. It seems to me like it would split the boards for no real reason.

From what I remember, there are many positions where bomb guys are likely to spawn, and indeed some of them are more problematic than others. My best advice is probably to be careful and not spam. When bomb guy comes up, delay your shot, get him as late as possible and slide right after. It's a hard stage and definately can end your runs without pity.

Good luck :>

So the patch fixed everything but the pause glitch and OOB, right?

Why not run have glitchless categories be run on new patch exclusively, banning pause glitch and OOB, and let everything else be run on old patch? Seems like a no-brainer and the most convenient way to go about this. All future patches would most likely have no impact on the only runs being relevant to them (they probably wouldn't recaliber weapon dmg output a second time). When a new patch drops, if there's a significant change, just add a variable/filter for it.

I don't think there's any need to add more categories at all. You can add a variable (version) for glitched runs, in case console runners would want to still play them. Since playing new patch on PC for glitched versions would essentially make no sense, this filter would likely create a console-only leaderboards without having to make it it's own category.

To people arguing Xbox always gets the short end of the stick: I'm sorry you chose to buy an Xbox. I really am. Truth is, for every speedgame released on multiple ports, there is always one version that's better than the other(s), and it's usually not the console version. Whether it's because of a technicality like a load remover you can't use in a community that chooses to go by IGT or simply the game performing worse or allowing less skips. You can still get a great run, and I hope this doesn't discourage people who don't want to switch to PC. But it simply is what it is and no matter what consensus we come to, it'll never give equal space to both versions.

The game's not available anymore it seems. They revamped the nekogames site and that page remains broken. I was hoping someone had an alternative.

Nice, definately helps knowing the hitbox stays there :>

Way to go fireb0rn :>

NMG having no WSE works me. We always joke about save+quit being a glitch in alttp because it's disallowed in NMG categories, but in the end, nobody cares (except Naegleria, definately expect him if you have badly defined categories since he likes to troll hehe). I do agree with the part that WSE is responsible for many of the glitches, therefore banning it does makes a lot of sense to me.

What bugs me though is -- and sorry if I'm being stubborn -- I actually don't think the boss freezes should be considered to be major glitches. In my definition, a major glitch should allow you to skip large sections of the game, or even the entire thing. I'd argue that skipping part of a level is definately minor compared to something like the weird file select stuff, if it actually wrote progress on the new file. I know that's not the case (yet), but if something else much more broken than bosses were to come up and we'd want to ban it, we'd have to specifically ban that glitch. Then what if something else comes up on top of that? I'm speculating but, to avoid having to re-evaluate/redefine the categories, I think NMG would be best kept to remedy those cases.

I can't really think of a better alternative other than 'glitchless'.

Super metroid doesn't have many variables iirc. In any% and hundo, you specify the route you take, which doesn't affect the category's objectives. Under low% I assume there's 2 categories but not subcategories. GT code runs maybe has with and without space time. This is all neatly organised last I checked -- they worked pretty hard on it.

SMW on the other hand I think is not an example for a great leaderboards. There are too many categories and variables (ones that do affect the categorys objective. See: 11 exit) and no matter what they do, not everyone can be 100% satisfied.

Cuphead so far seems to be a nightmare to categorise due to the many gameplay options and the fact that a lot of them seem to be at least somewhat popular.

That being said, my advice is, before adding any categories, wait for someone to actually have completed a run. Nothing is stopping anyone from running the category they like even if it's not currently on the boards.

I have to admit I would also largely prefer good and bad ending over what we have currently. If you ask me, since Simple mode doesn't complete the game, it should be placed in the misc categories as All Bosses - Simple. Then you can have good ending and bad ending for regular and expert modes. I really don't think simple mode is a good subcategory if it doesn't accomplish the same things as the other two.

Using those category names justifies them being so similar, rather than all bosses which is confusing because of the reasons cited above.

ty Brongle :>

Someone might wanna add the link to the load remover to the 'Ressources' section.

We can barely handle the weapon swapping for 1 player as it is. Also co-op isn't looking like it'll be any faster than solo categories due to boss HP scaling accordingly.

A lot of people seem to want a 'no weapon swap' category but other than that, I really don't think the leaderboards need more categories. Not until people actually run them. I won't lie, I hope people will stick to the current ones. They're good cats, Bront. :^)