Making this post to point out inconsistencies/areas in Marihour rules that are not in the best interest of runners.

My understanding is that the current Marihour rules have two goals in mind: Preserve darbian's category that he invented, while also making the category as accessible as possible.

The problem is that, as it stands, the rules are in bad shape for both of these. The category was opened up to allow other platforms to play on, which is great! I think it is too much to ask to require people to own an FDS in order to participate on this leaderboard. Where things went wrong is that certain factors weren't taken into account, which actually now make playing by the original darbian rules the worst way to play this category.

Playing on original hardware has the slowest loading times (FDS, N64), slowest game swaps (actually having to swap them out, compared to flash cartridge or especially emulator), and the most lag (SM64). If we're going to allow various platforms to play on, we need to equalize them by removing loading times and game swaps. Even after doing that, emulator is still going to have an advantage for SM64 (VC probably not as much, since slower bootup?), but this is more negligible than the way things currently are. Emulator and VC are also colloquially worse to play on for SM64 (Look at all the 0 and 1 star WR's), so I don't really mind that.

In regards to accessibility, there are inconsistencies in which versions are allowed, as well as the current ruleset being pay-to-win, in a sense. Currently, The Japanese versions of games aren't allowed. It's possible darbian initially specified this because SMW JP saves a couple seconds from save textboxes, and SM64 has a widely perpetuated idea that JP version says 2.7 seconds, but that's not true. Ultimately I think darbian just specified this so it was clear exactly what he was using, and so people could compare directly to him by using the same versions.

I'm confused why when things were opened up to allow VC and emulator, JP versions were still banned? Currently, you're not allowed to use JP SM64 for your run (which is a number of frames slower than English), but you are allowed to use English VC/emulator, which is a number of seconds faster than N64. This is inconsistent and things should be opened up to allow these versions too.

The area where this category is pay-to-win currently, is in game swapping. Because game swap times are included, one of the best ways to improve your time in this category is to throw more hardware at the problem. Get audio and video switchers so you can switch the feeds faster. Buy multiple consoles even so you can accomplish switches faster. Play on flash cartridges so you can do faster game swaps and have faster loading times (this is even mentioned directly in the marihour guide). Our ruleset should focus on comparing what happens inside the game, not outside. We should improve our times by playing better, not rigging our setups better. There will always be some aspect of this in all speedruns (having savestates to practice with, having the games to play in the first place), but in this case it's easily avoidable by removing game swaps from timing. We don't really need to be speedrunning swaps and slamming our cartridges and controllers around anyhow.

Alright. All of that being said, I just want to make the ruleset consistent, accessible, and be about our skill and execution in the games, instead of other outside factors that we can easily minimize. The pentathlon ruleset already handles this well, removing loading times and game swaps. Why don't we do the same? The main argument is that the more we change it the less it is like darbian's original category. It would be one thing if we always maintained darbian's original rules, but we haven't- and even worse, playing with darbian's original rules has the biggest disadvantage in the current ruleset. I motion that we incorporate all of the following into the rules:

• Allow JP versions (doesn't make sense why they're banned, but faster non-original versions are allowed)

• Remove loading times (currently, you are punished for playing on original FDS hardware)

• Remove game swaps, give a 25 second window to do so (FDS has quite a slow bootup, do we allow 25 seconds before the BIOS screen is shown? Otherwise it's still quite rushed)

If we go through with this, the final question would be should we start timing in SMB1 from movement? At that point your total time would just be the sum of your 6 individual runs, with the exact same timing methods as their respective leaderboards, which seems absolutely ideal to me. I would be willing to do all the legwork to retime the runs on the leaderboard.

We would still be playing the games in release order, and still be playing the category at all, which I think is the most important part of preserving darbian's category. Thanks for reading! - Kosmic

Hi everybody! Hope y'all are doing well. I know new emulator rules probably sounds scary but I think everyone will agree it's a positive thing.

A Specific Version of Mesen Will Be Allowed

Mesen emulator is a good emulator but has been banned for a while due to some features which made moderation tricky. Threecreepio has made a special version that we can allow for the leaderboards though!

The NES version is available here

Good news, there is also a SNES version in the works. The current version had no L+R handling whatsoever so Creepio is working on implementing that (can we give a big thanks to Threecreepio!!)

next up:

Input Displays and Frame Counters

For emulators which have input display and frame counter features, having these turned on is required. For the record, I know many use Nestopia and it doesn't have these features. On Creepio's Mesen version this will already be taken care of for you. But in the case you're using another approved emulator, be sure to turn on input display and frame counter.

and finally:

Lost Levels Categories Moving to the Main Boards

We've decided to move "Both Endings (FDS)" and "All Stages (FDS)" from the category extensions leaderboard, to the Main Leaderboard. These categories are essentially Any% D-4 and Warpless D-4 but for the original version of the game, so there's really no reason they shouldn't be main categories. Hopefully people take some interest in these great SMB2-J categories (I'm guilty too) and have some fun playing them!

That's it everybody! Let us know your thoughts, say thank you to Threecreepio, and have a good day!

• SMB1+2J Mod Team

Hi everybody! Hope y'all are doing well. I know new emulator rules probably sounds scary but I think everyone will agree it's a positive thing.

A Specific Version of Mesen Will Be Allowed

Mesen emulator is a good emulator but has been banned for a while due to some features which made moderation tricky. Threecreepio has made a special version that we can allow for the leaderboards though!

The NES version is available here

Good news, there is also a SNES version in the works. The current version had no L+R handling whatsoever so Creepio is working on implementing that (can we give a big thanks to Threecreepio!!)

next up:

Input Displays and Frame Counters

For emulators which have input display and frame counter features, having these turned on is required. For the record, I know many use Nestopia and it doesn't have these features. On Creepio's Mesen version this will already be taken care of for you. But in the case you're using another approved emulator, be sure to turn on input display and frame counter.

and finally:

Lost Levels Categories Moving to the Main Boards

We've decided to move "Both Endings (FDS)" and "All Stages (FDS)" from the category extensions leaderboard, to the Main Leaderboard. These categories are essentially Any% D-4 and Warpless D-4 but for the original version of the game, so there's really no reason they shouldn't be main categories. Hopefully people take some interest in these great SMB2-J categories (I'm guilty too) and have some fun playing them!

That's it everybody! Let us know your thoughts, say thank you to Threecreepio, and have a good day!

• SMB1+2J Mod Team

I just spent hours trying to figure out how Lekukie saved the mid 366 framerule in 5-2, and finally found out that he actually didn't.

When playing through the level normally, and doing the typical slowdown for devils spell (nothing fancy, just holding left), the first frame you can jump on for the clip is Frame 068. Jumping on this frame, and then doing a perfect devils spell with 3 frame perfect jumps will get you going down the pipe with Frame = 109 and R = 06 at the top of the Pellsson rom.

After entering the warp zone, the X sockfolder value in the HUD will be E. Here is a video with the typical HUD values (note that this devils spell is 2 frames slower than perfect, so all of the values will reflect that):

This is what you get when you start the level normally. Starting the level normally has the frame counter = 024. This holds true even if you restart the level with up+select. BUT, if you load a savestate (using left+select) after doing up+select, the HUD values will all change depending on what frame you did up+select.

In Lekukie's Twitch broadcast, he did just that. Here you can see him up+select to return to the beginning of the level, and it gives him the regular 024 frame number. But after running through it once, he loads back to a savestate he made at the beginning, and now the frame number is 152:

This actually messes up all of the frame counting HUD values, including the X sockfolder value and the R value. I tested this and everything lines up perfectly for it to be true. I got the frame count to be 152 myself at the beginning of the level, and here's a devils spell I did from there:

If you compare this devils spell to the first one of mine I linked above, you'll see they're the exact same speed. And yet, this one gets G into the warp zone instead of C. At this point, everything finally made sense to me. Looking at this, I could see 2 frames I could possibly save. I could jump 1 frame earlier after Mario comes to a stop, and I lost 1 frame on one of the jumps inside the pipe (the one where Mario turns around). So overall this devils spell is 2 frames slow.

Now compare this to Lekukie's: https://www.twitch.tv/lekukie/clip/BlindingCarelessChoughYee

You'll notice that everything is offset by exactly 2 frames! It all matches up perfectly! Lekukie jumps on frame 196 (1 frame earlier compared to the 197 in my video) and has all frame perfect jumps inside the pipe (Mario faces left for the entire clip). He gets "I" value upon entering the warp zone, which is 2 frames faster than G.

All of the HUD values are offset by 4 when comparing to regular HUD values that aren't messed up by loading a savestate. This means that Lekukie's X = I and R = 10 are actually the same speed as X = E and R = 6. When he finishes the level and gets R = 15, it's actually the same speed as R = 11, meaning it's 4 frames shy of saving the framerule. It's nothing to shake a stick at- his devils spell is the fastest you can go without doing a different slowdown method or a different clip method. But it unfortunately did not save the framerule. You can save 1 frame in the warp zone, and, according to Kriller, you can save 2 frames by doing a lower initial jump into the devils spell pipe and doing 4 frame perfect jumps inside the pipe instead of 3. All of that together would still come up 1 frame shy of saving the framerule. Drat! Not that it matters too much, since at that point it would be easier to just do the left side clip and save more time with it anyway.

Case closed! Be careful with your HUD values!

Regarding Cheating on the SMB1/2J Leaderboards:

In the past, we have dealt with cheating on a case-by-case basis.

Going forward, we would like to establish more clear guidelines on how the moderation team will be handling ill-intended submissions to the Super Mario Bros./Lost Levels leaderboards. These include the category extension boards as well.

First offenses will result in a one-month ban from submitting to the leaderboards from the date cheating is discovered. During this time, an audit of runs previously submitted by the offending user will take place.

Upon learning of previous cheating attempts, or if the user is caught cheating after the temporary ban, the user will be permanently banned from submission to these leaderboards. It is in your best interest to admit to any cheating done previously to potentially avoid a permanent ban.

Attempting to circumvent the temporary ban with a new account will also result in a permanent ban.

We understand that people can change over time and will offer users a chance to appeal one year after a permanent ban is put in place. An appeal does not guarantee an unban.

Regarding Cheating on the SMB1/2J Leaderboards:

In the past, we have dealt with cheating on a case-by-case basis.

Going forward, we would like to establish more clear guidelines on how the moderation team will be handling ill-intended submissions to the Super Mario Bros./Lost Levels leaderboards. These include the category extension boards as well.

First offenses will result in a one-month ban from submitting to the leaderboards from the date cheating is discovered. During this time, an audit of runs previously submitted by the offending user will take place.

Upon learning of previous cheating attempts, or if the user is caught cheating after the temporary ban, the user will be permanently banned from submission to these leaderboards. It is in your best interest to admit to any cheating done previously to potentially avoid a permanent ban.

Attempting to circumvent the temporary ban with a new account will also result in a permanent ban.

We understand that people can change over time and will offer users a chance to appeal one year after a permanent ban is put in place. An appeal does not guarantee an unban.

An organization called GG is hosting a warpless tournament. Registration closes this Saturday, October 6th. It's best of 3 and double elimination. There's a minimum $50 prize.

We've had 60+ entrants for warpless in the past, I hope we can get quite a few this time as well!

http://ggteam.net/super-mario-bros-1-warpless-tournamen-50-guaranteed-prize-pool/

Recently I tried to find a flagpole glitch setup in 8-3 by walking at the beginning of the level and beginning to hold B on a specific frame. I found a setup, but it wasn't very good. The next day, Pallidus found a much more effective setup.

Begin by holding right and NOT B. Start holding B on the frame shown in this image:

You can know if you did it right based on the enemy patterns in the level. Specifically, the first set of hammer bros will have 1 in the middle position, and 1 on the bottom, and the bottom hammer bro will throw two hammers. Here is an example of the enemy patterns after arriving at 8-3 on an optimal bullet bill glitch run:

It's important to note that if you interact with enemies as you go through the level, later enemies will act slightly differently.

Optimal framerule with killing first 2 bros:

Optimal framerule without killing bro on second set:

DevilSquirrel did additional testing and found the results you get if you hit B on different frames:

4 frames early: DB0

3 frames early: E30

2 frames early: C50

1 frame early: CF0

perfect frame: D70

1 frame late: DF0

2 frames late: D60 (This frame works!)¤

3 frames late: CB0

4 frames late: D30

5 frames late: CA0

6 frames late: E50

Notice that pressing B 2 frames late is also a working frame! Here are what the hammer bro patterns look like if you happen to press B 2 frames late:

And if you kill both bros in the first set:

¤Unfortunately the patterns look identical for pressing B 2 frames late and pressing B 1 frame late.

All of this data is only accurate if you start 8-3 on the right frame rule and if you do the inputs on the stairs correctly. Note that with the main B frame it's possible to get D70 and D50 (shown in the videos), while only D60 is possible with the 2 frames late setup.

TODO: Add videos for unoptimal BBG patterns.

I've been doing a lot of hunting for new strats as of late and have found several things. Some things only save half a second or maybe a couple seconds, and I won't make a video and list each one of those here, but I will post significant time savers. I'll continue to add more as they're found.

Things found so far:

5-5 3rd star coin strat (saves 6 seconds):

7-ship blind (saves ~25 seconds but requires an additional star medal somewhere else = ~10 seconds):

Total time saved: 16 seconds