As you can see in this run, there is a helper as shown by the two voices making it a cooperative run. This is not a solo run by any means whatsoever, remove him from the solo and put it in co-op. I am livid that this kind of cheating is allowed and I will happily pack my bags if this sort of corruption in rankings is allowed

I was skeptical because there's no way anybody could make such a difference in a so called "solo" run (Hour and thirty minutes? No way) and I was right. This isn't a solo run, never was. How did this make it through?

I completely agree. Miss Crumbly (the runner) is clearly being helped by Atoms.

It's not just that, there's a microphone chat that starts before the run even technically begins (As far as I know, the run "begins" during the loading screen of Create-A-Toon) so it's not like he's just some random guy that followed her for the entire run (How convenient, following a random toon for two hours straight and he's supposed to be a "random". I call foul). They obviously know eachother.

Another thing that concerns me is how did this somehow make it through. Did nobody even watch a minute of footage? Did they just look at the time and go "seems legit"? What's going on? There's no way this could be considered a proper fair competitive playing field.

Exactly. No toon just "randomly" follows another toon around for hours at a time, and "randomly" decides that they want to help them defeat cogs. I was also wondering if the mods watched it at all. If any mods out there are reading this (which if there isn't, that's just sad) then PLEASE move this run.

EDIT: I just checked and apparently, the 2:14 got first place in solo. No other times even went near this time. Whether this was a mistake or this is just someone wanting to cheat into first in solo, we really need some mods to move the run to co-op.

It is very clear in the video that the runner is controlling both toons. That is not against the rules currently because they never added the other toon as a friend. However, I am open to a discussion on how we can change the rules for solo runs.

The first option is to just ban people from using more than one toon at a time during solo runs. I don't think this alone will solve the problem because people can still rely on friends in a call to follow them around helping. In fact, there are other solo runs currently on the leaderboard where this is the case.

The other option is in addition to banning the runner from using more than one toon at a time, is to not allow the runner to get direct help from other people in a call. The issue is this is how do we properly enforce it? What about streamers who have viewers with maxed toons constantly following them around? Where do we draw the line between a run being solo and other people helping making it co-op?

Let me know what you think the rules should be on solo runs. I have no issue moving the run to co-op if we can decide on clear new rules.

People seem so upset that I'm beginning to wonder if runs where people are obviously relying on other people's help for a "solo" run, they should be moved to "co-op" at the moderator's discretion. And if that turned out to be the case, then maybe the moderator could contact the person submitting it and tell them, "Hey this is really more of a co-op run, so we will be moving this to co-op unless you want to submit an actual solo run with as little help as possible".

I see your point about the maxed toons following people around, I watched Megasnoop's Ddock run and those people were kind of just in the way and he couldn't really do anything about it. So that shouldn't be considered a co-op because he really was trying to do it solo, and he talks about "I didn't ask for this, but you guys just gave it to me". (And hey, maybe that could be considered as helping since he didn't refuse to use what they gave him.)

My point is that yeah, the only thing differentiating a solo run vs a co-op run shouldn't be the adding and keeping of a friend. I think it would be great to discuss how the rules can be changed.

It is very clear in the video that the runner is controlling both toons. No, no way. There's two voices in the video each sounding distinctly different. A male and a female. You can't just tell me he'd/she'd go through the effort of impersonating another gender's voice.

It's technically not against the rules but I think it should be. If extra toons can just be thrown into the mix to fight/spawn cogs and invasions then there's no point to speedrunning it. It completely removes the searching factor and luck factor and the only thing left in this speedrun after that is pushing buttons to accept tasks which can be TAS'd/macro'd very easily I might add.

Personally, I could just be too radical on this but I think that TTR speedruns should not be allowed to be streamed period. It causes interference by the fans because it's an MMO and people shouldn't be allowed to be THIS blatant with helping the toon out. You can't tell me that a random would be connected on a microphone chat and would follow that specific toon for TWO HOURS. It's so improbable to the point where it's certain that he's not a random thanks to the microphone (As far as I know, there's no voice chat in TTR).

I just don't believe that this is a legitimate solo run, he had help (Regardless of if he played both toons or not, it still gave him an advantage over solo players like how the run was meant to be) from other toons that rules this run illegitimate at least in this category. It'd be fine if it was a co-op even if he controlled both toons because it's a co-op between two toons.

I could multitoon my three 100+ laff toons, get everything I needed for all the tasks in TTC and spawn everything I need in, as long as I don't add them as a friend. You could do most playgrounds sub 1 hour. That isn't a solo run. If you ban people from using another Toon or using a friend to help, people will start faking and saying it is just a "random toon" on the street.

You shouldn't be allowed ANY help from ANY toon, so if a Toon so happens to join your battle, bad luck on you, you have to run from the battle. This prevents using multiple Toons to aid the run, any friends to help, or any people that are faking that it's a random Toon. It also helps add a liittle more luck and skill, because you wouldn't want to be in a full district. The issue with this idea is it would be impossible for a streamer to try do anything, you can probably guess why.

Exactly Zig, when you remove literally everything required in this run besides pushing buttons what's the point? The only thing that would be left is button presses which at that point you might as well just TAS it. If I can grind my other toon to max and have him wandering with my "solo" run spawning specific cogs he needs for tasks, then there's no point. It's completely unfair, I was training myself to get at least a sub four hour time and at this point if I can just spawn in crap, I see no point in continuing with a run that told me not to do that. Toontown was the one game I wanted to speedrun so if people won't play fair then I don't see the point in trying to go for the WR, after all, you can't win as a solo toon when there's a guy following so and so every step of the way so he doesn't have to use gags or search for cogs.

A completely hardcore solo run sounds fun which is what I thought this was about, no help whatsoever. Again, I think TTR speedruns should NOT be allowed to stream because it allows for interference. Another form of cheating we should be on the lookout for is with invasions. Like if a specific cog quest pops up and all of the sudden an invasion shows up in that district for it, it could just be extreme luck. Though, when it happens for every single task I think it's more than a coincidence because of how extremely low the odds would be to get each and every last specific cog task as an invasion in some district.

Yes, I agree. Although I don't think he was intentionally not playing fair, he was just going by the very few, very vague, rules that there are. There are obviously flaws and loopholes that need to be sorted out, which will be sorted sooner rather than later I hope. I also believe you shouldn't allowed to be in any district that has an invasion and if one pops up in the district you're in, leave immediately. This way you have to know what streets have the certain cog type you need.

You're right, technically speaking he didn't break any specific rules but I still think there's a discussion to be had about this run considering that it cuts the total off time the last run by over an hour by having that extra hand

Your ideas for a completely hardcore solo run sound extremely appealing to me. Perhaps no Speedchat or Speedchat Plus so nobody can be aware of your intentions and help out. It'll just be you on a throwaway toon going at it with all of the toontasks. The thing for categories according to the mods seems to be "If there's a market we'll add it", well you're looking at your market. I might not be the best Toontown player there is, I know there's a lot of people on here who click faster than I do but I'm willing to try a hardcore solo run. No invasions, no toons walking into your battle/you walking into a toon's battle, no speedchat, no interactions to the outside world besides the make a friend task (Which perhaps you should be forced to auto remove the guy you friend). I'm brand spanking new to this speedrunning thing (The only game I've played with the intentions to speedrun legitimately because I like experimenting with Gameshark and the like is Path of Exile) but if you need runners to justify a category's existence, you have one for a hardcore solo run.

Thanks for your input. I have updated the rules and changed the run to co-op. Feel free to give me any other suggestions about how to improve the leaderboard.

Thank you! I'm glad my voice was heard with this and didn't just fall into the endless void of other voices.

As Zig brought up the concept of though, I'd be extremely interested in an ultra hardcore solo speedrun (No interference and you must leave the fight if there is some, no invasions, no cog summons, no speedchat, have to immediately unfriend the guy you friended for the task, not being able to stream it, etc). Sure, it's technically completing TTC in the slowest way possible that isn't outright ubering but still. Part of speedrunning is endurance (Not being able to eat, drink, leave your chair, use the bathroom, etc for hours on end) and there's runs much longer than this (I'm willing to bet that an ultra hardcore TTC would be about 6-8 hours) so I don't see why it should be the exception. The market is there with me and zig considering that he invented it so it'd be nice to have leaderboards for it.

That sounds like you might as well be speedrunning Toontown Offline if you want zero interaction with other people. It would be much more efficient than having to leave every single battle somebody joins in TTR.

I think Toontown Offline has different content to the original TTO/TTR so it wouldn't be a true TTR speedrun. Not to mention (Though it could just be because I'm new to the site) I don't know how to add games

I think that you have a good point. Have a "co-op", "solo", and "extreme solo" for those who want it. That way, we don't disqualify people who have already gotten solo times. For "extreme solo" I think your best bet would just be to hop into a Welcome Valley and be forced to do all your tasks there. Very little interference! What do you think?

Yeah, that sounds like another good rule to it. Only Welcome Valley. I'd try to do the run myself but it's the end of the weekend so I won't be able to stay up for it (Because I'm guesstimating that this run will be at least a good six hours so that's six hours of no eating, drinking, leaving your chair, etc) today and if there's no category for it, what's the point? My time would be a laughing stock if it was sent to solo because I'd be forced to take zero shortcuts on it. Albeit it's more of an endurance run than a "speed" run because of a lack of speed but endurance is a big aspect of speedrunning long games, not to mention that there are games MUCH longer to speedrun (See: Pokemon Stadium with only one guy managing to do a full run of the game clocking in at 20 hours) so I do see how Toontown should be the exception.

But if you do only welcome valley how does it work for later playgrounds?