That is correct. When I timed. I timed starting at 8:00, which is when you said the run started.

Edit: Adjusted time to 20:46

We don't have any intention on excluding anyone from the conversation, and honestly, it is really likely that the conversation will be geared more toward what we do moving forward.

But either way, without you bringing it up, the conversation would likely have never been had unless someone abused them in the ways we talked about above.

I don't see how that's a contradiction. By unfair advantage, I was speaking to specifically the speedrun. By using the savestate, he doesn't get a better time, which is what I meant by unfair advantage. I'm not conflating the convenience of starting a reset-heavy run over more quickly with using a savestate to get a specific RNG seed, which is what I believe the issue would be here. The savestate is to a place before that becomes a factor.

If this video had been cut so that the savestate was never recorded, nobody would have known they were used.

RNG is possible to manipulate in this game without the use of savestates. CardsOfTheHeart has proven that, and if that is what the savestate was attempting to do, I would 100% agree with you on that it had given an unfair advantage.

At the end of the day, I don't really think I have a major opinion one way or the other. I think that it's a wording of the rules issue rather than a emulator advantage issue, and unless someone can prove that this video has used savestates to give an advantage in this specific speedrun, I don't think there's a valid argument other than the rules are vague and broad and need to either be reworded or we need to remove the run because it falls under the broad umbrella.

Hey there, I see your point, and how it appears, and honestly it could just be that we need to clarify our position and why that rule is worded the way it is.

The reason that we use the SRL rules for emulator usage is specifically in reference to the version and type of the emulators. It is a well known fact that there are certain emulators that operate at a different speed than others, moving faster than actual hardware and giving an unfair advantage to the player. This is what the spirit of the rule is as it is intended to be interpreted. However, I completely see your perspective on this. After discussing it, I think we as mods are still in agreement that this run's usage of the savestates doesn't really give an unfair advantage to the run, rather just adds a bit of convenience in a very reset heavy game.

Is it worth rejecting a run because they happened to use a save state while the stream was recording? From the beginning of the run (when the timer is started) to the end of the run (when the timer is ended) was a save state used? Save states are often banned to prevent RNG manipulations and other things, which hasn't happened here.

I suggest that we update the rules to be more clear on this, but that is just my 2 cents.

We have discussed it thoroughly, and after considering all inputs, we have decided that it's best to leave the category as it is.

The glitch is allowed in all endless leaderboards, and is easily the most optimal strategy. If a glitchless endless mode run is what you would like to do, and have that be a competitive strategy, Tetris Attack is functionally the same, and the glitch is no longer present in the base game. We will not be adding a glitchless leaderboard.

Additionally, endless speedruns utilizing Panel de Pon are valid to be submitted to the Tetris Attack leaderboard as long as the 32-combo glitch is not utilized.

I'm leaning toward having glitched and glitchless leaderboards. The reason for this is if you look at the current leaderboards, all runs but 2 are glitchless. I think this is probably because endless has always been sort of a 'chain exhibition' mode where it can really showcase your chaining ability and it is essentially rendered useless by the ability to just get 3 big combos and have maxout score. I think the glitch really defeats the purpose for the category, however, it is also a speedrunning leaderboard, and pushing the time down it really what it is all about. In the interest of having both options, I think this is the best way forward.

I'm not in the camp of splitting leaderboards, but I also don't really want to just move PdP runs over to the tetris attack leaderboard either...

As you already may know, the switch release of Panel de Pon has corrected an issue with combos awarding over 30,000 points in endless mode if they are over 32 combos.

Obviously this brings up the issue of different versions of this game affecting the leaderboards.

I don't want to have this game split into two different games, since the only mode affected by this is really just Endless mode, however, I do think that it is important to have a way to distinguish between the two versions on the leaderboard.

I have thought of a few options, as well as received a few already in Discord.

Option 1: Split the current endless leaderboard into glitched/nonglitched (combo/non-combo; pre-patch/post-patch; etc...). Effectively creating 2 leaderboards for each difficulty and each score goal (30,000/99,999)

Option 2: Add a variable to show whether or not the glitch was used or prepatch/postpatch was used. This will keep the leaderboards together, however, since using combos has been demonstrated to be MUCH faster, using the post-patch version is probably not recommended.

Option 3: Change nothing. Other games with glitches that prove to be faster on earlier versions (e.g. A link to the past) have not split the lb, and instead just recommended that runners use the version with the glitches. Since the pre-patch version is the most commonly emulated one on the leaderboards, it is unlikely that this will affect much.

Let me know what you think, and if there are any other ways that you think of that you think we can use.

And done.

I am horrible at checking the forum apparently. I think this is a good idea.

@Bokoblins I am a Puzzle League super mod as well, and I concur that Darko has not been involved in the moderation in the series.

For those interested, this game's community is located at the PuzzleGeneral discord at:

discord.puzzlegeneral.com

Hope to see you there!