Hey everyone!

With the addition of a full glitchless category i want to ask what exactly is considered glitchless and what not. With the last post in the previous thread, the community should decide on what is ok. I want to do runs for the game and am not sure about some things. I will give my opinion to it here and would like to hear yours.

What should not be allowed:

• Going Out of Bounds should not be allowed in any way.
• Glitching through doors by jumping at them with a shiv and spamming action should not be allowed.

What should be allowed:

• While in transformation you can use your secondary ability to perform a long lunge that makes you able to get over long distance, therefore skipping a small way of the dev intended route.

What I am not sure of:

• Jumping over fences e.g. at the end of chapter 3 when you are outside you can jump on the headlights and then over the fence. Same thing in chapter 20 when you push a crate on a tile to put out the fire, after that two enemies should burn up the fence but in my walkthroughs this can be super delayed. So you can also jump over the fence there by just pushing the box close to it.
• When standing on a railing you can perform a dodge to the left or right to survive a fall that would otherwise kill when you normally drop, or at least lose massive health. (Can be seen in PakaChans run below at 1:53)

Also:

• 23:39 even tho i mentioned i think those jumps should be ok, this one skips a cutscene and an event.

I hope we can get a clear ruleset soon so newer players like me know what to look out for in the run.

Here is my suggestion for the glitchless ruleset:

• Going out of bounds is not allowed.
• Glitching through doors by jumping at them with a shiv and spamming action is not allowed.
• Canceling fall damage where you would otherwise die is not allowed.
• Taking shortcuts through partially unloaded areas is not allowed.

I think that would be a good compromise so the dev intended route is mostly maintained.

You can cancel dialog by saving and reloading. This has 3 uses:

• skipping the guard's yelling before he comes out in the 1st level
• in the 2nd level to skip some speeches and get your beat meter thing faster
• in the asylum level to skip some killjoy dialog at the end. You can get the same effect by saving and dying, or activating a checkpoint and dying (which can happen naturally in the 2nd level). Is this allowed?

Also i looked into an old skip, seems acceptable to me but just to make sure, is this one ok?

I don't see why not. The WR has a similar skip in another part of the game.

I consider skips to be glitches but I guess this glitchless board doesn't - so I don't see why you can't do that one.

Hey everyone!

I understand what you mean droogie. The reason i made a run is because i thought the forum was pretty much dead and no one would respond in near time.

We can vote on what is allowed and what not, and i have no problems to withdraw my run and do another one. The ruleset wasnt, and still is not written out, and i thought using the lunge to skip a few parts is okay.

So the following things are now known and i think we all agree upon:

• Going out of bounds is not allowed.
• Glitching through doors by jumping at them with a shiv and spamming action is not allowed.
• Canceling fall damage by side-roll where you would otherwise die is not allowed.
• Taking shortcuts through partially unloaded areas is not allowed.

What needs a vote:

• Cancelling Dialogues by saving and loading a checkpoint or dying.
• Using the lunge in transformation to reach areas you could not reach by the dev intended way.
• Skipping the beach part by climbing up the ship (as seen in PakaChans video above).

In my opinion using the lunge is fine because the game allows you to reach those areas without going out of bounds. Also the ship skip should be fine because it does not go out of bounds. So imo the last two points should be okay. But as i said a voting will decide. Unfortunately we dont have a discord server so i guess we have to do it here.

Well I vote No on all 3 of those points you raised because none of those things are (imo) how the devs intended you to play the game. But I suppose we'll see how everyone else votes.

For me, a glitchless run means "playing the game fully as intended on the developer specified path without skipping content that you were intended to interact with." We have non-glitchless categories for this other stuff.

That's why when I did my glitchless run long before we ever even had a category, I didn't do anything that could even remotely be perceived as a glitch. It just feels wrong to have a glitchless category if we're using methods that would probably quality as a glitch in an Any% category.

I always look at it like this - did the developer intend for that to be an option for you? If yes, it's alright. If no, it's not alright. Obviously the beach skip (which I think you, Owl, also do a similar skip in your run where you hop on some lights to jump over a fence instead of taking the ladder like you're supposed to) is probably not what the developer intended you to do there. Saving and loading is also something I believe no dev ever intends a player to do in order to skip parts of their game.

The lunge is the only one in my opinion that is questionable. The other 2 feel 100% like glitches to me. You could make the argument that the lunge was an alternate way the developer intended for you to be able to reach that area but again, to me, it doesn't feel like it. I don't believe they intended for you to do that at all.

Sorry for the late response.

My suggestion is that i will group up all the points in this discussion, and we will do a vote about it. In my experience a lot of glitchless categories do allow the use of smaller skips that the developers did not intend, but are clearly and easily possible to do. For example using the first person mode to jump over the lights at the end of chapter 3 is something I would not like to ban because the game clearly gives you an option to do it. Same thing in chapter 20 after extinguishing the fire. It seems way too small and harmless to not allow it imo. With the lunges I would say the first one in chapter 8 is also fine. In chapter 17 as well as long as you do not skip the cutscene trigger. Chapter 20 as well, even though we skip a cutscene the game still allows you to reach those points without going out of bounds or using weird tricks. And about the ship I have to admit it looks absolutely fine to me. As shown in PakaChans video, we do not go out of bounds, we just use a smart way to climb the ship. So these things are fine to me. What I am not fine with, is skipping dialogue. It feels like a very tedious thing to do in glitchless and should not have a place in this category. Even though its not as big as the other skips mentioned.

I will suggest now that we will just vote about the following things. Please give me a yes or a no for each line. Yes to allow it, and no to not allow it.

What will be banned so far:

• Going out of bounds or leaving the level geometry.
• Clipping through doors by using the shiv.
• Cancelling fall damage where you would otherwise die by performing a side-roll.
• Taking shortcuts through partially unloaded areas (As seen a lot in the Any% All Levels category)

What will be voted by you:

• Skipping dialogue by saving and loading, or manually reloading a checkpoint / dying. (Yes/No)
• Using certain jump sequences to skip bigger parts of the dev intended route without going OoB or leaving the default level geometry. (e.g. climbing up the ship in chapter 13.) (Yes/No)
• Using first person mode to climb over fences (e.g. the end of chapter 3 to climb the fence by jumping over the lights instead of climbing the ladder). (Yes/No)
• Using the lunge in transformation to skip a small part of the dev intended route (e.g. chapter 17). (Yes/No)

If you have anything to add please let me know. I would say we do the vote up to Wednesday midnight UTC time. Here is a countdown: https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/vote?iso=20210512T235959&p0=%3A&msg=The+Suffering+Glitchless+ruleset+voting&font=cursive

With me running the game as well i will also vote.

• Skipping dialogue by saving and loading, or manually reloading a checkpoint / dying. (No)
• Using certain jump sequences to skip bigger parts of the dev intended route without going OoB or leaving the default level geometry. (e.g. climbing up the ship in chapter 13.) (Yes)
• Using first person mode to climb over fences (e.g. the end of chapter 3 to climb the fence by jumping over the lights instead of climbing the ladder). (Yes)
• Using the lunge in transformation to skip a small part of the dev intended route (e.g. chapter 17). (Yes)

Since I only voted on 3 before, I'll comment again. I vote No on all 4. Hopefully Pakachan will vote so we can break any ties between us. I'm sure Paka will vote for the skips & stuff to be included but it'd still be nice to get at least a 2 out of 3 on these.

• Skipping dialogue by saving and loading, or manually reloading a checkpoint / dying. (No)
• Using certain jump sequences to skip bigger parts of the dev intended route without going OoB or leaving the default level geometry. (e.g. climbing up the ship in chapter 13.) (No)
• Using first person mode to climb over fences (e.g. the end of chapter 3 to climb the fence by jumping over the lights instead of climbing the ladder). (No)
• Using the lunge in transformation to skip a small part of the dev intended route (e.g. chapter 17). (No)

Well, this is my vote:

-skipping dialogue by save/load, checkpoint/load, save/death (not allowed) -skipping dialogue by checkpoint/death (not allowed) - for consistency's sake i vote not allowed on this but you can do this unintentionally if you don't know about it -jumping over the fence in chapter 3 (allowed) ( you can do it 3rd person too) -boat skip (allowed) -climbing on the house to jump over the fence in level 19 to skip activating the lighthouse (not allowed) - this leaves default level geometry tbh, felt like it needed a bit of clarification since you can do this without door glitches -lunge skips (allowed) - the one in the last level is the only questionable one but fighting infernas at the of the run is.. unpleasant to say the least and allowing specific ones as opposed to others is scuffed.

Alright, the voting is over and here are the new rules:

The following is not allowed:

• Going out of bounds or leaving the level geometry.
• Clipping through doors by using the shiv.
• Cancelling fall damage where you would otherwise die by performing a side-roll.
• Taking shortcuts through partially unloaded areas (As seen a lot in the Any% All Levels category).
• Skipping dialogue by save/load, checkpoint/load, save/death.
• Climbing on the house in chapter 19 to skip the lighthouse part.

Allowed:

• Using smaller shortcuts that are not dev intended (e.g. jumping over the lights at the end of chapter 3 to skip climbing the ladder, or jumping on the box, and then over the fence in chapter 20 after you extinguished the fire).
• Climbing the ship in chapter 13 is allowed as long as you do not go out of bounds.
• Using the lunge in transformation to skip a small part of the dev intended route (In chapter 17 you are not allowed to skip the cutscene by jumping around the tree).

Hey everyone, I would like to add a small information to the glitchless ruleset because I discovered something today that I dont think is known.

In chapter 9 "Oblivion Regained" once you leave a cave, there is a flashback with the inmates hanging the CO's. This flashback can be skipped by just walking on the right side, and also keeping your camera to the right (not looking at the tree, ideally in first person because your FOV is way smaller). I think this should be allowed because it does not require you to do weird tricks like in chapter 17 in the other categories where you have to jump around the cutscene trigger at the tree, and this is 100% consistent as well.

Video for reference: (flashback visible at 10:00), again just walk on the right side and keep your camera to the right.

This however has no use in other categories because it its always skipped.