So, while the discussion continues of whether or not RNG manipulation and no RNG manipulation should be separated into subcategories or not, I feel like this is a very important sub-discussion that deserves its own thread.

If separation was to happen, should the no RNG manipulation / legacy% runs be categorized under Miscellaneous? Or should they stay on the front?

Discuss this issue within this thread. State clearly which of the options you are in favor of, and why you feel that way.

Either keep it the way it is now, or separate RNG manip and no manip into sub categories under no card dup.. misc is a terrible idea since its still the most popular full game category.

@tyler9698 This thread is literally just a discussion on Misc or no Misc. Check out the other stickied threads on the forums for the main discussion of whether separation should happen.

I argue for misc primarily because it's a compromise: generally people not in favour of separation are okay with it and there are people pro-separation who also said they would be fine with it. One could always count the people who said they've been up for it as a compromise. Yes it will annoy some people, but that is true of literally every course of action. I don't see how it's possible to really get much further into reasons without basically rehashing the arguments featured in the speparation/no separation discussion so I'm not going to go there in here.

I do feel one danger should be pointed out. If you have a poll on misc./no misc. after the separation discussion has concluded in favour of separation, then at that point any incentive for compromise is lost. So I approve of having this discussion concurrently.

I was under the impression that misc categories were for runs that use specific arbitrary rules or don't finish the complete game. All of the any% no card dupe and no manip runs do still fall under "Any% (No Card Duplication)" even though not using manip is slower. So I don't understand why any of these runs need to be moved to a separate category and especially not a misc category.

Like even if you do end up choosing to make a separate category somewhere for no manip, does that mean for the main "Any% (No Card Duplication)" category, that you are required to use manip, otherwise you cannot submit to that category?

I'm strongly against the misc category thing for the purpose of tallying, no matter what the outcome. I care about this more than I could possibly care about anything else. I will actively vote for whichever course of action does NOT see the most commonly run/active/popular category of a game become a misc category, because that's just memeworthy in all honesty. And it's not even a good meme

I am also very strongly against the category being moved into Misc. The bottom line is that No RNG manipulation is the most popular category that beats the game from start to finish.

Personally, I feel that there are a few different qualities a run has that make it misc. One of those is not beating the game, obviously. Any run that does not beat the game should be misc. No rng manipulation beats the game.

I think that misc categories should be categories that have some kind of completely arbitrary restriction on it. Now, I know people who want it into the misc category are SCREAMING in their minds "Banning RNG manipulation IS arbitrarily restricting the run!!!"

I am inclined to disagree. To me, arbitrary restrictions are things like "you are not allowed to use this function of the game" or something along those lines. An arbitrary restriction makes it so usual gameplay is disrupted. RNG manipulation is requires a ton of legwork to get going, and I would definitely not consider it a normal function of the game. RNG manipulation is not something people use in playing the game, at all, unless they have done considerable research and legwork beforehand, including going into the game's code.

But in the end, what people consider arbitrary is up to them.

Outside of that argument, let me now make the most obvious:

It is the most popular category, and will likely continue to be the most popular category. Playing Forbidden Memories without RNG manipulation will (unfortunately) always be the most popular method of playing and speedrunning the game. RNG manipulation simply requires too much work to start doing speedruns of it. Now, that could obviously be debated. But no one can debate that it is the most popular category right now.

No RNG manip has been the most popular category and currently IS the most popular category. To put it into Misc right now would be incredibly, incredibly asinine and nonsensical. I do indeed understand the argument for it to be put into misc, and I feel like if the day comes where RNG manip is the most popular category, then the discussion could happen again. But to ban it now would be an incredibly bad move and would actively hurt the community as a whole.

So, my opinion stands firm that it should not be placed into the misc area.

I think I have a different construct of misc categories than most. It had always been drilled in my head as I was getting into speedrunning that different main categories had different levels of meaningful game content. Having been the first to document speedruns of multiple games, I also ascribe to the idea that you don't need a community to speedrun so deciding main categories based on community preference at a particular moment in time is a disservice to new runners. My preference is to base main categories on ingame content and base misc categories on community interest.

With that in mind, having tried to complete the game both ways, I cannot think of anything that could convince me that manip runs and no manip runs have different levels of meaningful game content. Both runs complete the same number of duels in the campaign mode and only differ, at present, in the number of free duels, which I equate to grinding levels in RPGs and consider filler. Therefore, I could not split the two into main categories in good conscience.

But, if the community really wants them separate, then I think misc is the only place for no manip.

Doing an "Any% (No Card Duplication)" run and simply choosing not to use manipulation is NOT an arbitrary restriction, you are just deciding to use slower strats/using a slower route. It's not like the people submitting their no rng manip runs are saying to themselves MANIP IS NOT ALLOWED, they just don't wanna do it.

It does not matter if you do manip or not, either way if you finish a run, it is still classified as "Any% (No Card Duplication)" the only difference is using manip is much faster.

I'd like someone that is pro-misc to explain to me why an any% no card duplication run that does not use manip strats should not count as "Any% (No Card Duplication)" anymore?

Tyler, people are free to submit runs that fit in a misc category to a non-misc category simultaneously so long as it fits the rules. See for instance Kanek's no THTD run. In future do at least try to have a passing semblance of intelligence, beyond that required to use a keyboard.

Pro split Pro Misc

The arguement being that yea no RNG manip for this game is kind of a meme category in the same way say uhh like Nemesis percent in FFX is. lots of people run it, lots enjoy it but ultimatly it isnt really a "pure" speedrun.

And Tyler the race point has been brought up a bunch. if people didnt care about the catagories being split why do people seem to only race the No RNG manip run?

No it should not be misc but this is because I prefer sub categories anyway