Ryu will join us aswell

I think I`ll join aswell, do we join a discord or how do we start?

"@Bender Any% normal would be for p1/px/p8 sorc? I guess even in these sorc categories it's just p1 sorc where the timing breaks down due to load times."

I dont know, P1? Was more of a random tought to a) leave record at 327 and b ) get the dataproblem sorted. It is kind of a strange solution and would look really wierd if theres like a singled out category while everything else is sorted nicely. True bandaid solution

About loadtimes: I guess we could do some experiments and see if its the same. Like same seed+gear+actions = same loadtime on multiple systems. I agree that IGT favors strats like that (or shrinefishing) and playing around the lag is part of the game. At the same time, if a strong PC gives you a clear advantage, IGT does have its benefits in terms of fairness

Another question is if he was even aware how impactful ns was in this heavy reset strat.

I got a somewhat awkward workaround idea: 7 Categories p1/x/8 any%, normal+hell (like indrek proposed over here: https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/thread/pl3l2 ) and normal any% which would be the sorc leaderboard. The way I understand it you can apply different rules to these, so we could have IGT+RTA on the any%, sort any% by IGT, and forget about IGT on all other boards (if thats what the community wants)

"After Slimo got WR with -ns, the community was faced with the question of what to do next. At that time, the top 4 sorc p1 consisted of Slimo, Indrek, Teo and me (BokserKabaty was in 5th place, but he was not so active, I may not be correct in this case). Me, Slimo and Indrek believed that -ns should remain and for a fair definition of WR the rules cannot be changed. Teo was against -ns, but he was deciding how to vote."

and

"Also didn't we already dethrone Slimo wr anyway when we converted to IGT. I guess we scam either way."

First of all, using -ns was a modification of the game, giving you a clear advantage over someone that doesnt modify his game like that. Yes, you three were fine with it, but a lot of us would rather quit than play -ns.

You guys didnt ask if thats fine as far as i remember, you just did it. In my opinion these runs should not have been allowed in the first place. We banned ns and left the runs there, because we replaced it by a stronger tool - IGT. Which now gives us trouble due to site limitations.

I agree that a lot of people voted who should not have, but honestly i miss these "dictatorship" days I keep hearing about at this point. The state we are in now all started with the -ns stuff. People came up with "what about -act5?" which lead into our overbloated rulesheet since common sense doesnt seem to get applied anymore.

As I said above, I dont want to dethrone a WR at the discussiontable.

I think i would loose norm sc sin WR to Meow by 1 second, but thats fine with me. Kano would loose norm HC druid to Teo

The thing is, if we sort by RTA again, Slimos run would be first again right? We banned -ns and put IGT in to create fairness there. Thing is, if you want to be sorted in as Nr1, you would have to beat Slimo without the benefit of -ns or IGT, which is probably a 54-55 IGT

I think getting the RTA data in wouldnt be that big of a deal. The most active runners could help by doing their own and then it wouldnt be that big of an effort (since all should have a 2nd timer anyway).

The bigger issue in my opinion is that we sort by igt as default, so our leaderboards would have the left example of teo as the default look and we cant simply produce the IGT data for the RTA runs. We would have the data to sort by RTA, but that would also be a bit strange since we added IGT to create fairness for the runs that S+Q a lot.

I agree that the dataproblem is a problem that won`t get smaller, but as far as I see it our current setup creates the best look for the speedrun.com leaderboard, regarding the options we have.

I dont think 2 timercolumns is an issue or confusing, but I feel like if we do that, we need to sort by RTA, which creates some issues in itself. I guess its only really the sorc leaderboard where it would matter, so maybe still do it?

Problems with that:

• we have things in the RTA that isnt allowed anymore (like the -ns run from Slimo), which is another issue but related
• it would switch the order on the sorc leaderboard. I`m not a fan of changes that would dethrone a current WR, valid by the rules we made, to replace it with a run that uses stuff we dont allow anymore. (basically i dont want to dethrone a WR on the discussion table at all)

"Right so we agree P1 is "worse" than a Px/8 run? Why do the boards not reflect that then?"

Two people agreeing doesnt mean it is agreed upon. If you check by number of runs, you would realize that probably 90-95% of all runs are P1, P1 is the dominant way this game is ran. If you compare it to Super Mario 64 (https://www.speedrun.com/sm64) , they sort by "120 stars on N64" as default, because more people care about it, while the fastest would be "0 stars on N64" If we sort by fastest normal for example, we would display a category with currently 2 submissions, of which is the fastest (48min) and the other is 40minutes slower.

About the layout: Other than most games, D2 is kind of a 7-in-1 Speedrun and with that in mind, I think our layout makes sense. If anything you can compare it to games like D1 or D3. D3 would probably look very similar if the game wasnt so stupidly easy that a HC tab there just doesnt make sense

"Should a P1/8 only run be compared to a Px run on the leader board? " In my opinion, no it should not. Regarding the options Px gives you, thats like asking if Bikes should be allowed in a running competition. Sure both are about covering distance as fast as possible, but one has by default a huge advantage

"My opinion is yes for a few reasons: ... Second the runner would then have the option to stay at p1/8 if they get an amazing start to a run or see something that gives them the opportunity to compete with Px times and change what submission type they want to pursue. "

You seem to lack some understanding what we do with PX. On pX you instantly go to P8 at the start to gain the first few levels faster and every character that does the first quest will lower the settings for that part. So you are already locked in pX within the first 2 minutes of the run

Discussing about "true any%" doesnt really get us anywhere in my opinion. We have a very popular P1 Any% which deserves its own leaderboard, we have Px Any% which deserves its own leaderboard (fastest way, but also easymode compared to P1) and P8 who currently also has its own leaderboard (which in my opinion doesnt hurt to have since layoutwise it is fine)

There is no such tool and I think creating (a meaningful) one would be pretty hard.

A lot of mapreading comes down to identify on which tile you are and turning away from deadends as fast as possible. You can train that by looking at the Tilecollection for example: https://www.speedrun.com/d2lod/guide/dadr3

A tool to train this probably would just put a black layer over most of the tile, just show you what you would see ingame and have multiple choice like "is a deadend", "continues to left+right"... However each different area (caves, catacombs, jungle...) would need very specific "reveal" points and not every tile can be decided on at the same point. So I`d say probably easy to program, hard to get the data right

title says 11 feb, friday should be 12th

Imbue: Havent tried imbues, but all my chars i tried were with shopped gear and it never took more than 3 gheed visits to get 20 run/walk. 10 attackspeed gloves also seem to be easy

Can use this calculator to look at odds for affixes: https://diablo3.ingame.de/diablodb/affix_index.php?lang=en&version=d2c&patch=111

NM den in normal runs: dont really see that being better than having runewords for all of normal. According to that calc i just posted, runwalk imbue on normal boots at lvl9(->ilvl13) is a 1:3 chance compared to 1:4 in LoD. So i guess you could farm lvl9 in classic and imbue, if you get it convert and run towers, if not reset. Basically could guarantee yourself early runwalk

Leapbug: When a target is not selected and the Barbarian does not leap over or land on sub-tiles directly adjacent to a target within melee range, then the attack animation may not be executed even though the attack is: this can reduce the attack interval to a minimum of 15 frames, the minimum length of the leaping animation.

Source: https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leap_Attack

Basically jump next to monsters without touching them but close enough for your weapon to hit (works best with big range weapons)

Just to clarify why lvling in act1 nm works in classic:

The monsterlevels are lower: Bloodmoor+Den = lvl26, Cold Plain+Cave = 27, Stony = 29 and bossgroups get +3 added to that. Just based on lvl difference, you kinda want to grab lvl 22 in the blood moor/den. 22-25 i did in the cold plains in my tests, but you could also do corpsefire runs and kill the easier blood moor groups

The nice thing is even basic fallens are worth 800+ xp, as comparison 2 fallens in nightmare = 1 serena minion, so just getting the burning house tile or the bishibosh tile next to a waypoint can already be a strong lvling option, since there are like 30 fallens guaranteed

here is a video of me gaining lvl 21 to 25 in 10 minutes with an explosive arrow amazon

Another thing to remember is that you need to kill duriel in nm, otherwise you still have to do act5 normal after converting (same for hell -> nm)

So my char strats would be:

• Pala classic, lvl to 23.9 and convert (to avoid doing nm maggot without teleport)
• Necro im not sure, but def kills NM duriel before converting, requires 20+ fcr to do normal i think
• Amazon: Kinda needs explosive arrow build to make NM work (no swapcast), however explosive arrow is really slow at act4 normal (like loose 7 minutes slow). Need to see if there is a build i can do that works for normal and doesnt need a respec, otherwise i think you dont gain much here
• Sorc: I`m no expert here, not sure how hard cs is at lvl 21 without merc, but due to more mobility, nm lvling should be really quick here
• Barb: tried beating up blood moor groups with doubleswing, wasnt horrible. I could see two handed leap attack work or concentrate. Advantage of leap attack would be that it gains 30% ED per level and there is a bug where it doesnt execute the attackframes but still attacks. Its hard to execute but with slow bloodmoor groups that might be viable + strong enough to oneshot minions

• Mods If 2/3 dont have the time anymore, we need to add more. I`d be willing to help out. If you are fine with Kano, Macro and me we would be 6, should help a lot with keeping the verify-queue short and spread the work over enough people that no-one has to spend too much time on it

• classic I dont really care too much, but as it is an ingame-feature i feel like we should bring it back. Dont think a lot of people had an opinion on that when we voted and just followed along slimos argument without too much thought

• retiming: Cant do that for all runs with a reasonable effort and i dont see an automated way happen. I feel like if people want to do it, they can but should carry the effort themselves. Something like a timestamp-link list with how much time they claim on that exit

I`m no expert on streaming software, but if your gamewindow looks fine on your end but gets stretched in streamlabs, you might be using a bad aspect ratio? You should be able to set that in streamlabs

/e had a quick look at your VOD from 2 days ago, looked fine at minute 15?

Ok, here is what I enjoy about running D2 and why i wont compete in IGT:

I like to get the best time out of the hand given to you. Example: some people only lvl on serena in act3, i also got a Tomb-, Flayer-, Travincalstrat to adjust to the situation. Now if TCP/IP gets free, my act3 lvling-strats wont matter because you can reset into a better with very little effort. What will happen to normruns? We will have stuff like reroll waypoints in spider to get the instant cut into flayer or get act4 tundrawaypoint early and try to warp across. Instead of running the game, we just coinflip a lot. IGT will turn norm into an insane fish-for-RNG category

With IGT, you dont deal with your hand, you just get a new one whenever you feel like it. It might not work every time, but with enough people doing it, you will just need better RNG to compete. It very quickly narrows down what hands you can play. I know some people have a "if thats what it takes to be faster, i`ll do it"-mentality (and grind jails for 100 hours). I just want to play the game.

Inconsistent loading times isnt great, but im not really willing to sacrifice the fun part (for me) of the game for consistency... For me its RTA either with banned -ns or not, sound also has advantages at some points

@ -ns: Is there even a reasonable way to ban it/distinguish between -ns + volume turned down? 327 got a point on that you cant really force people to use sound reasonably. Rejecting runs based on "loadtime too quick" seems not very satisfying (and too much work for mods anyways i guess)

@ no load screens-time can people submit 2 times then? Not sure if i will care to, but i could see some (sorc)runners going for all the fastest times, which would be strange on the board if only one can show up. Lets say I only care about RTA and beat the RTA on the leaderboard, but everyone knows someone else has a faster time that wont show up because their "no load time" is faster... would feel wierd

I dont know, our community isnt that big to begin with, we split on 7 chars, hell/norm, hc/sc, seeded/nonseeded and now RTA/noloadtimes? I feel like we split up way too much for the size we have

I would prefer to ban -ns and keep everything as it currently is.

@Wafu "exceptions can be made on a community basis" - as far as i am aware no-one asked the community if we want this or are ok with this. Either Indrek just did it without asking if it is ok or he asked a mod who approved (and told no-one, which is what 327 points out here -> got to make stuff like that public)

PS: i`m also against scripts as this

Well as i said, it depends on what people want. Grinding out the RNG for a competing sorc-run is painful (which is the mainmotivation for Ryus post I think), the chance for a jailsetup that works is around 1%. Now the question is how much control we want to take. As LaV showed, you can control pretty much anything (except drops?) with seeded active

For me thats too much control, but up for discussion. For me the argument pro-seeded is "sacrifice map Rng in exchange to not reset 5 hours to leave act1 once". Otherwise I`d like to keep the game as close to original as possible. On the other hand you can go as hard as possible on what the seed-command offers, but then we are playing an entirely different game

Ok with what LaV showed here, I think I would prefer the seed command deactivated, otherwise it really comes down to 1. Create a blueprint 2. Execute that Blueprint as good as possible. For me that removes too much decision making

But i guess it comes down to what people want this category to be. A tool to avoid the map grind and keep as much randomness as possible. Or executing your plan with given RNG as good as possible

I think challenge runs, while being fun, dont belong on the leaderboards, because you can literally do 10000 categories. If something gets popular enough, maybe, but I think the interest needs to be proven first (lets say 10+ people that want this category)

@BNet-Style/always new map That one would be interesting and a nice way to get away from the "farm one specific spot"-meta. I like it.

@Seeded I already posted my opinion on that in the other thread. But since we dont want to mix it in our current Maincategory, you still need to do that grind there. I agree that the sorc-grind is at a point where it is not very fun In the end, you can always grind RNG, seeded or not, so longterm you end up with a insane RNG grind either way. Non-seeded you grind for the map. Seeded you grind for that 65fcr +3 nova run