Welp, I figured I'd give a shot routing it. I ended up including Save Richter to make it more interesting. Here's the vod: https://www.speedrun.com/sotnce/run/z1g86xwz

The RBO leaderboard will be on the category extension page: https://speedrun.com/sotnce

Today I'm pleased to announce that there is now a Category Extension leaderboard for SotN: https://speedrun.com/sotnce

What this means is that we now have a place for the less competitive and more obscure speedrun categories. Notable inclusions are all the categories that were once only tracked in the Cool categories forum post as well as PhotN Richter and DXC / Reqiuem Maria. I added and moved runs manually, so feel free to message me if any corrections need to be made.

What exactly do we need to start documenting? Everyone you have interacted with in this community immediately knew you were doing something illegitimate while you were dying on your hill insisting that WE were the crazy ones. This kind of thing just goes without saying on every leaderboard. And whatever this new claim that "newer stuff will eventually also stop working"... what the fuck are you even talking about here? Actually don't answer that. Just fuck off.

Forgot there was also an iOS version of the game. I've updated the thread title and removed iOS from accepted platforms.

Although short lived, I have decided that Richter Mobile runs can no longer be listed in the same category as the PSX build. The auto-bladedash button is not singularly a big enough factor to disqualify the run, however, the game allows the runner to buffer bladedashes out of doors.

While it remains to be seen whether or not this gives Android runners a significant time advantage (I doubt it does), it has added to the evidence that the Android build is too distinctly different from the PSX build to warrant it's inclusion in the original category.

The existing Android runs will be removed from the leaderboard and the rules will be updated. Unfortunately, there is so little competition on this platform that I do not feel that creating a new category is necessary at the moment, although that may change in the future.

Until there is an active moderator who is familiar with both DXE and Android Maria runs enough to approve them being in the same category, I will reject. There just isn't enough interest in Android runs to warrant them being in their own category at the moment.

Because the route is the same on both platforms. This is conventional in most speedrun games. It encourages runners to congregate towards the fastest available platform in order to achieve the fastest possible time. The only exception we have would be Saturn Maria where the leaderboard is split between console and emulator. This is only because the best Saturn emulation available is still not accurate to hardware lag and loading time, thus, inaccurate emulation gives a distinct advantage over any official platform available for that category.

The Any% Requiem / DXC PAL category is for glitched PS4 runs. Not sure what your motivation could be for this arbitrary "death skip only" request. We try to keep leaderboards for categories that are contested, and such a category that you're suggesting would be very niche.

Allowing only the death skip does not provide a large enough time gain over Glitchless to warrant its own category for the sake of it drastically changing the length of the run. Most runners on PS4 have not had difficulty learning the other skips, so there is no reason to ban the other skips for the sake of drastically changing the difficulty of the run.

My advice would be to learn the other skips and submit your run to the Any% Requiem / DXC PAL leaderboard, or, learn the Glitchless route and submit your run to the Any% Glitchless leaderboard.

You are welcome to speedrun the Saturn version but we don't plan on adding it as a category because there's no real competition. We don't see the point in creating a leaderboard for a single run.

Update: These runs have made their way to the Category Extension Leaderboard. This thread will no longer be maintained.

WR 31m32s by BenAuton 34m19s by mecharichter 36m09s by Desquall 54m09s by Narcissa 56m30s by romscout 1h01m03s by Metako

WR 2h22m32s by 3snow_p7im 2h34m20s by mecharichter 4h07m36s by Dr4gonBlitz 4h08m01s by romscout TAS by Desquall

WR 42m02s by Desquall

WR 1h09m15s by 3snow_p7im 1h09m35s by BenAuton 1h14m44s by Desqual 2h04m22s by Zexx TAS by ForgoneMoose

WR 8m52s by Narcissa, old route 10m19s by nathan7878, new route TAS by ForgoneMoose, old route

WR 25m28s by Dr4gonBlitz TAS by ForgoneMoose

WR 53m41s by romscout

WR 7m20s by 3snow_p7im 7m28s by BenAuton 13m36s by Zexx 14m31s by TalicZealot TAS by ForgoneMoose

For any%, yes

Probably a good idea to put in the rules that the game has to be ran at 60hz/fps since photn can run at whatever you can set your display properties to.

Rules amended

Let's give this a try and see how it goes. I will change the rules for the Richter Any% and All Bosses categories to accept PhotN runs. If at any point it comes to light that DXC Richter has an advantage over PSX Richter, I will unlist the runs from the board and that will likely be the end of PhotN on our leaderboards considering how little interest in general there is in running this version of the game.

There is no mod required to finish the game without earning XP. Here are some runs to study if you're interested in learning the route: https://www.twitch.tv/benauton/video/126063333

There are currently no categories on this leaderboard that allow mods, and Pacifist would be no exception. If you finish a run using the current route, please let me or one of the other moderators know and we will probably create a leaderboard for it here, as I would be happy to submit my run and I could possibly convince Ben to submit his.

If you have any questions on anything in the route. feel free to reach out to us on the Long Library discord server. Link is in the Resources section.

Touch screen is one thing, but imagine you wire up a real controller with a blade dash button.

This is not how the game is implemented in reality. When you connect a controller to PhotN, it removes the touchscreen controls and it doesn't map any buttons to the special move shortcuts. Thus, there is no advantage to using controller on mobile versus using controller on xbox or psx. This argument is purely a hypothetical and I don't feel it should have any weight in consideration.

While you are absolutely correct that it will never touch the top tier runs, it breaks the comparability of runs below that. Even playstation warrants separation on that account, but at least it and xbla work identically on the mechanical level.

This is even more in support of having PhotN listed next to xbox for Richter since their load times are similar. PhotN might actually be faster than Xbox since there's no metal platters spinning up. And again, PhotN + controller is identical to Xbox/emu mechanically.

For me personally there is just not enough of an incentive to break the boards just to accommodate runs with the lowest possible commitment or effort and absolutely no merit or aspirations to be competitive.

You are erasing the member of our discord that is actively competing with other's times and their own. I also originally discounted them for it, but they are undeniably trying their best to improve their Richter time. Now, I agree, their platform of choice is unfortunate, but I think we should be encouraging them to develop because there is always the hope that they eventually reach the ceiling of what can be done on touchscreen and seek to improve beyond that.

I'd like to propose that we accept submissions of the mobile SotN port to the main Richter Any% and All Bosses categories. I know what most of you are thinking; That's stupid. The game is so different, it has touchscreen controls and continues and you can't buffer out of doors! Sure, that's all true, but what are we really worried about?

Putting the PhotN Richter run alongside the Playstation and Xbox runs actually has some benefits, and I think that if we enumerate them, they easily outweigh the drawbacks. So put aside your initial inclination to scoff at the idea, and let me attempt to convince you.

First, I will list the benefits. The biggest one is the added accessibility. PhotN is much easier for the general population to obtain, install, and play than any other release of SotN yet. Most smartphones even have screen capture built in, making it possibly the easiest platform for recording a run.

Speaking to this, there are already several PhotN Richter runners out there, so, we could presumably have more Richter runs right now if we expand submissions. I, for one, think this is a good thing. However, these runs are not optimized, and, as I will argue later, never will contend with tops runs on emu or xbox.

This is a minor point, but it would also be easier for the moderating team to implement this. We wouldn't have to create a new category on our leaderboards, just add Mobile as a platform and amend the rules where applicable.

Next, I will address the arguments against the proposal. Likely the first to spring to mind for most Richter runners is of course the "bladedash button". The very concept of such a thing has been a meme for years and then they went ahead and actually made one. But the thing is, it doesn't help you go any faster.

If you think the Richter runs are just bladedashing, you have a very cursory knowledge of Richter's mechanics. Sliding, uppercuts, and transitional movements are almost as, if not more-so, important to the run as consistent bladedashing. This is really where the argument against touchscreen falls apart.

Frankly, touchscreen controls in general are awful and PhotN's are no different. Richter's uppercut input will always be faster and more consistent on a gamepad or fight stick than on touchscreen. And have you ever tried to candle kick on a touchscreen? Lol. Whatever time is saved with optimal bladedashing is crushed by the time lost doing literally anything else.

Aside from the touchscreen controls, how much different is the PhotN Richter run from the Playstation version? I would argue that there is no difference, aside from not being able to buffer inputs through doors. If you connected an external controller to your phone and cropped the game window border, I would not be able to tell the difference between your run and a run on xbox (save for their distinctly different flavors of shitty audio). To me, this is the strongest argument in support of the proposal.

TL;DR: PhotN controls are trash and are disadvantaged to physical controllers, regardless of the bladedash button, however, we should allow submissions on the leaderboard because it's otherwise the same game as far as Richter is concerned, only it's much more accessible to newcomers.

The moderating team has decided to go forward with the suggested change to the timing of the console Maria categories for 2 reasons:

1. Unanimous recognition among the stakeholders involved (ie. the actual runners of the categories) that the suggested change benefits the community.

2. Lack of a compelling argument against the change that cannot be resolved in the future with further discussion and/or clarification.

To recap how runs will be timed going forward:

• Every area load, internal load and boss load gets removed from the first duplicated frame up to and including the black frame before the first fading in frame.

• Second castle warp load gets removed from the frame when white teleportation animation around maria disappears up to and including the last frame where that same animation is there in 2nd castle.

Times for existing runs will be updated to reflect the new timing method and their run descriptions will be updated to include their original RTA times. All the Any% runs will be updated immediately, followed shortly by the All Bosses runs. Unfortunately, a few Any% videos are missing frames during transitions into loads and are unable to be timed using the new method. These runs will retain their RTA times until the runner can provide better quality video of their run.

It is important to note that the new timing method is implemented in such a way that preserves all strategies optimized for console. All times will continue to be based on the timestamps of the original video provided by the runner, with the only difference being that now the sum of all loads will be subtracted. If you’re interested in exactly how this is calculated, please use this spreadsheet as reference:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OWifCUV__lzbI0-k_I8oDupQYAqzP61tPbMrYf7B32E/edit?usp=sharing

Please keep in mind that these changes are isolated to the console Maria categories and are not intended to influence other platforms or characters. While it is true that no platform is immune to some performance disparity among runners, the degree to which the various revisions of the Saturn hardware are affected seem unique in the SotN speedrunning community.

We thank everyone for their feedback and perspective on this matter, but especially Miba for his initiative in measuring the difference in loading times among the top runs and elevating the discussion around this issue. However obscure it may be, getting a competitive time on a console Maria leaderboard is now certainly more accessible thanks to him.

I vote in favor of timing runs without loading. It would make the saturn console maria run more accessible to newcomers since they won't have to worry about having the fastest console to compete with top times, which will become more of an issue as time goes on and working saturns become more scarce. This also removes any issues of consistency regarding retail vs burned CDs which again will be a greater issue in the future as is the case with all optical media. I will gladly volunteer for retiming current leaderboard and future runs.

Yea definitely makes sense. In that case I'm in favor of the proposed timing change.