hello, all the current consoles for LoD are all listed except for PSTV. I thought i would say something, PSVita and PSTV as far as i know might run on the same system but are still very much different, alot of the times PSTV is also faster. Although i could be wrong on that too
It is listed, but nobody have done a run. PSVita is going to be PSTV + PS Vita (2-in-1). You can run on anything that's legit (not Xbox 340 for instance). Even if it's faster, it doesn't matter. It's a valid console to speedrun on.
Only PS1/PS2 belong inside the same leaderboard. PSTV/PS3 are regarded "legit," because it is official hardware, however they are unable to natively playback psx games. In fact they use ( rather mediocre) emulators and thus have no business on a console board with ps2 runs. At the moment it doesnt matter since nobody ran on it but should someone do so we will most likely operate according to ff leaderboards and seperate psx disc and digital versions to ensure no emulated gameplay is mixed with the original game.
if it's offical hardware then it should be allowed on the LB. Just because you have a digital copy sold by the same people doesn't make it any less official.
That is the wrong logic, it doesnt matter whether it is official or not. It is allowed but you have to seperate what is different. Just because a pstv has an official sony logo on it doesnt mean the quality and precision of the emulation gets any more precise. Nobody in their right mind would throw a psx emulator together with native playback. It is common on older consoles where the emus are providing very exact results and where the availability of the hardware is becoming a problem but on psx it is a terrible idea.
At lod this is especially true because any emulation of the game is amongst the worst ive seen on psx.
As I mentioned above I would seperate native playback (psx/ps2) and any sort of emulation like pstv or ps3 in 2 leaderboards the same way we do it at ff7 and ff8.
The logic behind it is the same one you apply when you seperate pc or ps4 ports of classics into their own boards. You dont just put different runs on the same boards only because both are "official".
Personally, I doubt that the PS Vita/PS3/PSTV will be faster than a PS2 with fast disc speed. Until there has been proof that there is an advantage to PS3/PS Vita/PSTV, then the console shouldn't be split in more categories. We need more people to speedrun this and having 1-2 people on each leaderboard would be very bad for my eyes. :'(
The thing is. Emulation on fixed hardware like PS3/PS Vita is more OK than emulators, because they allow people to race against times with even hardware. Hopefully this will never be an issue.
I hope you don't mean that if Bobby Joe gets 15:44:03 in Any% that we need to separate his run due to being played on a PSTV. ;)
That is exactly what I am saying. Just because this game is small doesn't mean we have to do things that do not make sense. There was a lot of stuff done wrong on other games I've been to and they have just been carried over due to tradition and fixing them later was a pain in the butt. As for example fixing the fps stuff on ff7 pc it took me like a year to fix what people should have most obviously done ages ago. Emulated stuff and original console doesnt belong together, PSX emulation including what Sony offers in that department is just way too off for that it is not even necessarily only about loading times it just isn't the same thing. Doesn't the fact that this kazas warp seems to only work on whatever this ps3 emu is supposed to be serve as enough of a warning?
And yea, in case the PSTV is faster which it usually is at any game that means anyone can use it not just the first person that does so. Meaning you force any runner who wants a top time to deal with half assed laggy failed attempts of emulating a ps1 in order to speedrun the main category of this game. No thanks mate we should do this properly :) Any% only native consoles please.
the only reason PS3 isn't faster then PS2 is due to the fact it does not have FDS, PSvita, PSTV, and PSP all do have FDS and are alot of the times are faster due to load times. Take Parasite eve for example. The fastest version is to play on PSP or PSTV due to the fact of their load times, FFT is also the same way, it's faster due to load times. Another example of a game that's faster is Spyro. The only reason these don't have digital separate due to the fact that they're literally the same game, just ran on different hardware. If we were talking about remakes/remasters or even ports where there's alot of differences such as FFX or FFXII or even something like Sword of mana then that warrents separating the categories or even making LB all in it self. There's literally no point in separating categories just because a console has better load times. I don't see why that's fair, espically when people there are people who want to take the game seriously and want to be competitive but are forced to play on a different category because they're not playing on disc. That's like saying to BotW players that you have to play on a disc copy of WiiU or have to from the chip on the switch. As for the thing about emulation, emulation will never be faster due to the fact there is not the option for FDS so no matter how fast your computer or much better your computer will be emulation won't be faster unless you mod the emulator to do so but then your on accurately emulating the game which is pretty much banned in most situations
You didnt understand a single word. Emulation is never faster is what you are saying just after telling me the pstv is usually faster. LuL Your "fast disc option" is just an emu setting , that is not the difference to the ps3 or sth pc emus can not do. PSXFIN is way faster at ff7,gt1 and many others in load times than a ps2, this fast disc option is nothing pstv exclusive or sth making it closer to a ps2 they just call it that to run load time emulation on max speed which pc emus usually are defaulted to(obviously no disc spinning here aye?) The ps3 just uses a totally different emulator that was made in a different time for a different cpu. It has nothing to do with a pstv in any way it cant even run a lot of games at all, it was rushed and it is terrible and slow. These "consoles" as you call them are emulating the game no different than pcemus and they are not doing so very well. Thus they dont belong on one board with the gamebeing played back natively and correctly.
The fact that there are other communities who fail with pstv doesnt matter the reason here is being uninformed. Look in the spyro forums i asked why only epsxe is allowed as emulator. And they are telling me that the important thing is emulating a grey psx as accurately as possible. And thus epsxe?? OMEGALUL epsxe is the least precise emu , it is designed for compatibility and nothing else, when a console would have long crashed it still keeps running like a coca cola truck. XEBRA would have belonged there. Thus I dropped the topic right away because I was obviously talking to a wall.
Its not "unfair" to seperate a pstv because it is not your console that is faster but your emu that is faster. And why you think it is when load times are frame based? Because it is not good.
Im gonna say that I dont mind too much if it is slower but the pstv usually isnt. We should compare some footage and look at load times and if the pstv provides an advantage we make a digital board just like on the ff boards I mentioned.
Well, I've always wanted to separate PS1 and PS2. Mainly because you can play the game however you want on a PS1 while as you have to restrict your dragoon usage on a PS2. Nothing would keep anyone from labeling their run "PS1 WR" or "PSTV WR". I would like to compete without PS2. Because you also need to have a specific model (70001, 75001 or 77001) since newer PS2s have banned FDS on Legend of Dragoon. Not that we are going to remove the PS2 category at all, but I still think there are unfair advantages no matter how we do this in the end. Nobody have even done a run yet on a PSTV (we could outright ban it and only allow PS1-2-3 and let PSTV be in the "Level Leaderboard" together with Emu runs).
I was on my way to finish the first PS3 run in the Faust category but I died. I could have done it on a PS2 (wrong model number) and still gotten a faster time, but I decided to try out the PS3 version. I felt it was really nice and solid. Haven't tried if the dragoon issue remains yet.
PSTV will perhaps be faster, but we will have to see when someone does a test. I have no PSTV to test with, but even if it is faster I wouldn't mind having it in the same category as my PS2 record since I know, personally, that I hold the PS2 record (or disc-based record, and only lost it due to PSTV being faster). PSTV will never feel more official than the original PS1-PS3 consoles. I don't think we will ever see a WR run on a PSTV. The best players will probably play on the actual PS2 to prove themselves. ;)
If there was a vote I would say "no split" no matter what other games do about it. I find PSTV more legit than an emulator. Bobby Joe can share his time on my leaderboard. Kappa
I think we would encourage people to speedrun PSTV if we split the leaderboard. People would be posting crappy 16 hour runs and claim WR and then people would rather race in the easy category. It's not good mate. :'(
Of course there is differences between hardware, of course you have an advantage playing on ps2. Thats just the major point. The fastest device allowed is what you have to default to in order to reach a top time. Thus the leaderboard is now ps2 board, once you allow pstv and it is faster it is pstv board. Slower stuff allowed is unimportant it matters what is the top device. And the difference here is that the ps2 plays the game natively and is thus good to play on while any emulator including pstv is crappy. Forcing a ps2 to get wr is ok , forcing sth crappy is not. The only difference between a pstv and a pc emulator regarding ps1 games is the sony logo.
And regarding gray psx and dragoon softlocks...you basically apply the same logic as me only taking it one step further. Namely claiming that not even a ps2 is 100% native given that the different hardware regardless of whether fd is on or off is producing glitches unknown to a ps1 showing it is not 100% the same after all. The problem you have here is that you come too late. PS2 is established everywhere, the current WR at lod is using it. While you can always change rules it is hard to remove runs from the main board that fit in the ruleset of their time meaning the WR becomes eternal. On pstv the same will happen if it loads quicker it will also most likely have unique properties or even bugs and we will be too late again if we dont seperate it from the start.
Ban Fast Disc Speed, half of the problems would be solved. If something will change we need to change before someone do a full good run. I wouldn't mind banning my own run, if that's what it takes. I would rather make a new speedrun on a 90K with normal speed, but yeah that's only because my run is so outdated by today's standards and route improvements. :)
I'll return to this topic in a few days after more people have written. I work like a doggy, so my brain is AFK. Kappa
I guess you are now joking. Fast Disc Speed doesnt change anything. It doesnt solve the softlocks, in fact some glitches are removed by it. PS2 basically has more problems at this game than a PS1. Also fds is not the major and only speed difference, ps1/2 and emulators including the pstv both with fds on and off all have individual speed. And it doesnt change the fact that only ps1/2 are not emulating the game. Please dont produce chaos now this makes no sense and doesnt relate to the op, if we want to talk about how ps1/ps2 compare and the influence of fds we should do so in a seperate place.
This is only about pstv and I have explained any important information in that regard. If it is faster it needs a seperate board, if you are unhappy with the glitches on a ps2 that is a new topic.
i think the problem here is, you think just because FF7 is faster that means every game is faster. Most games are slower on a PSX emulator. Take FFT for example, emulator loses about 30-40 mins just load times alone, that's not including any laggy CS, while emulators are never accurate yes they're certainly not faster for every game. FDS is alot of the times the reason the game loads faster, emulators do not have this option which is why it is slower. Sure some games have an exception to this but that doesn't mean every game is the same, most games i've ever seen been ran on any emulator was either way slower or is closer to being with PSX ( which is of course slower then PS2 respectively). Also whoever tested for FF7 to be faster on PSXFin must've had a modded iso to speed up the load times because everyone in the FFT community uses PSXFin and their load times are slow as shit compared to console. But you can't just assume because one game is inaccurate doesn't mean all of them are, and all games have to taken in a case by case difference because not all games are emulated the same. So to just pass it off as "it's the emulator that makes it faster" is just an uneducated excuse. Don't call someone uneducated when you've obviously haven't even got the facts right yourself. FF7 is the first game i've ever heard to actually be faster on psx emulator, i'm sure it's not the only one but to assume every game is like that is wrong
What the hell. You say "Emulators on PC can never be faster than a PS2", I prove you wrong,(Yes one example does suffice since you say "never" but I have more). As a consequence you claim that I said "Emulators are faster at every game" which I never did and call that uneducated given that in your weird perception I believe that and figured it from having 1 example? How old are you mate? Can you start reading what I say rather than making shit up? I said the emu of the pstv is faster at pretty much every game which is the point here. Not pc emus. I only ever talked about pc emu speed to prove your random statement wrong. Actually it doesnt matter this topic is about pstv.
But it gets better. "The guy who tested that ff7 is faster on psxfin must have used a modded ISO to speed up the loads" FailFish That is wrong on so many levels I do not even know where to start. Apart from the fact that it makes no sense it is not what happened. Psxfin is commonly used for practice and in the past has been used by a few other runners than me also for runs. Which was before there was a leaderboard for it. It is commonly known in the community how much quicker it is. You can just test for yourself or look at any practice/running footage of anyone to see instant transitions. In fact my pb on psxfin is 7:09:50 , that is like 9 minutes faster than the WR on PS2 . Of course I modded my iso for that with the allmighty load booster iso hackprogram Kappa
However, as I said before, that part is pretty unimportant, the point you didnt get (and I think you still didnt do so) is that a pstv emulates ps1 games no other than a pc emu. And since a pstv is faster and nobody likes to run emulation you cant force people to use it.
Before you come back , google "emulation" and read a bit. In your world anything made by sony, regardless of the fact that all devices have different hardware and thus require different individual emus coded for them, is exactly the same and also the same as a ps2 with the only difference that fds can be set or not. You seriously believe you can compare a ps3 to a pstv and the only difference is one option. Read, read, read.
p.s.
(As a cherry on top, in mednafen you actually can set the iso load speed and on high settings murder ps2 load times at literally any ps1 game in existence if you want to. Psxfin is just defaulted to load as fast as possible and at some games it works faster than a console and at others not. Another example would be Gran Turismo 1. Mednafen can do it at like any game and psxfin only a handful because just like a ps2, mednafen is way more precise. But that is again another story.)
I'm just gonna chime in and say. I feel Emulators aswell as Consoles should all be on separated leaderboards. There are a literal ton of reasons behind that I won't get into. (meesbaker covered quite a few of them already)
Aside from that if I'm emulating I use Mednafen.
Emulators are banned on PC for this game. Question is just what we do with PS TV/PS Vita runs. Nobody have done a run yet, but eventually someone will. It's faster than any other console, and it is emulating the game. Could always put it in level leaderboards for PS Vita runs as a quick solution. We'll see.
