Hey fellow Road Rash runners and mods:
I wanted to bring this up since my 3DO's laser recently died. In fact, even while I was doing runs I could tell that something was up, as I kept getting behind my splits despite playing better.
After discovering this, I decided to compare my IGT to the times K-Patch listed in the description of their run...
kyletx500's run: The City: 3:17.80 Sierra Nevada: 3:10.60 The Peninsula: 3:15.90 Napa Valley: 2:55.73 Pacific Highway: 3:15.18
kyletx500 Total IGT: 15:55.21
K-Patch's run: The City: 3:11.86 Sierra Nevada: 3:12.26 The Peninsula: 3:13.61 Napa Valley: 3:15.56 Pacific Highway: 3:26.70
K-Patch Total IGT: 16:19.99
As according to IGT, I technically beat K-Patch's time by nearly 25 seconds, and I'm assuming this is due to slower loads on my dying system. In most circumstances I wouldn't bother bringing this up, however I've decided to buy a USB loader as I'd prefer not to deal with dying lasers any longer.
I think considering that load times vary dramatically on different 3DOs anyway, it would be wise to switch over to IGT times for the leaderboard. I know it requires a bit of calculation, but the game displays the times after every race and it simply seems like the more fair comparison. Currently K-Patch has the load time advantage, but with a USB loader I'd most likely have the upper hand, and I'd prefer to make it as even of a playing field as possible.
Navigating the menus is part of the run, is there IGT for that?
I don't have a load time "advantage". I have a normal 3DO. If this matters that much to you, then please get one of your own.
And if you really want to compete with IGT, why not do some level runs? Those are all IGT. Would be great to have someone around to help me push those times down.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "navigating the menus" simply consist of simple button spamming? The game automatically selects the next level upon completion of the last, so there's no real technique going on as far as I'm aware....
Playing your video side by side with mine upon completed races the menuing matches up before each race, however your load times are considerably shorter which allows you to get subsequent races many seconds quicker. Keep in mind I was also doing my runs on a "normal 3DO." The nature of these old lasers are simply not consistent enough to provide fair times with RTA.
I'm really not trying to stir the pot here, I'm just seeing a major discrepancy that I'd like to get worked out. I think the solution of just "getting one" is silly because these systems aren't that cheap, at least here in the US, and even I did buy one, the laser in that replacement could be just as bad or worse. I could end up dropping a lot of money and be in the exact same spot that I am now.
My current 3DO laser is no longer functioning and I have a USB loader on the way. I would like to continue running in the Level 1 category but realize that my loads will likely be faster. My console is stock otherwise so I fail to see the issue if we take loads out of the equation entirely and go solely on IGT.
I will ultimately respect whatever decision the mods decide to make, but I just want to get my point of view out here. I think later on down the line these systems are going to get even less reliable and more people will be going the USB loader route. IGT would mean any system configuration would be viable and it would make the category more welcoming as a result.
Most of my other runs are on Wii, where USB Loaders are generally banned because of load times giving people that mod their systems an unfair advantage.
https://www.speedrun.com/speedrunning/thread/jxlwk/1#lp2mv
But I too will respect whatever decision is made. If USB Loaders are allowed, then I'll probably just stick to level runs going forward.
@k-Patch I think you're missing my point. I'm suggesting we switch to IGT, therefore load times wouldn't be factored into the overall run time.
Yes, if we stayed with RTA and I started using a USB loader, that would be unfair, and I agree 100% on that.
IGT would mean you could use any system, brand new laser, busted old laser or USB loader, and it would be fair, since there's no load times to get in the way of the racing. It's not like a USB loader is going to make the game magically run faster. It just means I don't have to worry about the most faulty part of the system anymore.
PS and PC(and probably SegaCD and Saturn too) have similar problems to some extend. If you're going to switch to IGT you might aswell do it for all platforms.
Level 1 has very little menuing so it wouldn't change runs much. The main difference is that it would render the finish line trick useless.
So far it sounds like the only reason to keep RTA is for the finish line trick; admittedly there is some skill involved on that, but is it worth the risk of dodgy load times influencing the time of the run?
It also looks like most of the other Road Rash leaderboards have switched over to IGT for their Level 1 runs (I checked the 16 bit, RR 2 and RR 3 boards). It seems like for the series as a whole, runners and mods have opted to make IGT the go-to way to measure performance. I agree that RTA is more convenient, but there's too many variables to make it very accurate.
@k-Patch The reason I hesitate to to IL runs is because those are locked to Level 5, which as you know, takes a considerable amount of time to unlock. I know the 3DO is a niche console to begin with, but I could actually see someone pick one up and do some Level 1 runs for fun. I think far less people are willing to spend hours doing races they can't time in order to unlock the ability to do IL runs.
@kyletx500 you don't have to unlock level 5 in Thrash Mode. You just set the level to 5 in the Restroom area. Go to Player Level and select Level 5. That's it.
If you to go IGT in Full Game runs, then you can take a break whenever you want. Finish The Peninsula, let the cut scenses loop for an hour while you get lunch, then come back and play Napa Valley. That's hardly a "speedrun".
@k-Patch I was unaware you could set Level to 5 in the Restroom. Thank you for that info.
Obviously I don't condone breaks in speedruns; I'm not even sure how anyone could justify doing that and call it a speedrun. It's pretty well established in other IGT full game runs that you can't do anything like that and have it be verified. I don't see how this would be any different.
The leaderboard for Star Wars: Super Bombad Racing (which I am a part of) switched over to IGT recently for the same reason of load times varying wildly between console revisions. All runs still require to be done in one sitting with no breaks: https://www.speedrun.com/superbombadracing/full_game
Even more popular racing game speedruns like Sonic R have adopted the same IGT method: https://www.speedrun.com/sonicr#Any_No_OoB
I guess we just have an irreconcilable difference of opinion. I don't think a full game run should ever be a sum of IGT, and I don't think modded hardware should be allowed for a RTA run. And I don't think the mods would particularly enjoy going back and retiming the 18 runs that are already up here. But I'll leave that up to them.
To answer your question @kyletx500 : the finish line trick is absolutely worth sacrificing to make things fairer to everyone, as good as it looks.
I am personally in favor for switching to IGT whenever it is an easy slam dunk, and Road Rash Level 1 is pretty much the perfect case scenario for this. RTA is often terrible for accessibility, especially if, like in this specific gen, you have to fight against planned obsolescence on top of having to hunt for specific models. Everyone loses at this game, except for a bunch of resellers on eBay.
I'd like to volunteer for retiming existing runs if there's ever a need to.
Again, you have five level runs that perfectly match what you are looking for. They've even more easily accessible for people than the Full Game Run is.
It just seems like the many cons of RTA are outweighing the very few pros (namely convenience and the race finish strat). Plus it doesn't seem right to gatekeep full game runs to those that have the best and fastest hardware, especially when there's a perfectly reliable in-game timer at the end of each stage.
I just think it's a good way to both ensure run fairness but also futureproof the category, especially as the hardware gets even less reliable. I foresee even more people will opt for USB loaders or hard drive mods down the line, and IGT would eliminate any possible advantages or disadvantages.
As @Moorea alluded to, it would take some effort to retime the other runs, but it's something I would also gladly volunteer to help with.
@k-Patch The IL runs are a good option, and with the info you provided, I'll gladly do some runs once my system is back up and running. I just hope I can also still participate in the Level 1 category because I find it a lot of fun to do them all in one go. I just don't think it makes much sense for me to drop down more money on 3DO consoles and hope I find "the one" that has a flawless laser and the best load times so that I can compete in an RTA setting; it's just not realistic.
Original hardware is irrelevant tbh as you can always use an emulator and in the future original hardware of old consoles will become more and more of a rarity anyway..
So back to the topic: Given that the difference in loading times can be that huge I think we need to switch to IGT. But not to get the wrong idea, the IGT should serve as means to provide a more fair competition and not to replace the importance of your real time performance. A speedrun should be a speedrun after all.. so in other words just because we will switch to IGT, doesn't mean you are now free to take coffee (or any other sort of) breaks during your run!
I propose those rules for full-game runs:
- Ingame time is used as timing method, but:
- No pausing allowed (was already introduced)
- No IGT manipulation allowed (don't know any in this game besides maybe deliberately running your game slower on emu, but just to be on the safe side)
- No breaks on level transitions allowed (possible cutscenes should be skipped and the next level selected/started right away)
For Big Game Mode(Career Mode) time during the menu for buying a bike should be added manually. I don't see a way around it.. but it isn't urgent anyway. Probably will adjust rules later when there is really need for it..
If there are no objections or other suggestions to the proposed rules (majority appears to support switching to IGT here), I would make the changes in one week. For retiming I would probably make a spreadsheet or something that automatically calculates those typed in times. And those rule restrictions would only concern future runs (I know one run that used short pausing, but I think retroperspectively "ban" a run is unfair to the runner, unless screen with the IGT is missing).
And about the ILs, you can get any bike in Career Mode, even the fastest one in Level 1 if you repeat races enough. Adding those Level 1-4 tracks to ILs would result in people using the fastest bike anyway. So I don't see the point since those are just shorter versions of the same repeating tracks. But if there really is a need for that, it might be added later. Btw the bike you get in in Thrash Mode Level 5 is only the second fastest bike (on PC version at least and I assume same for consoles too?).
Of course, I object...but seems I'll be overruled anyway. Guess I'll stick to Level runs now.
New rules seem good to me.
Though Career mode should probably should stay RTA, as you can't get IGT from races you don't complete... everything would have to be timed manually post-run which seems like a huge hassle.
So is this for all runs or just 3DO? Also does that mean when submiting a run we should put IGT per race in the notes section while putting RT in the submission field?
@Zero169 I believe @Molotok is proposing switching to IGT for all full game runs on all consoles. I originally brought this up for 3DO specifically since my console was being way too inconsistent, but there are obviously issues with other platforms too; such as the PS1 version that requires a slim PS2 with fast disc speeds for the shortest loads.
There is an option to allow input of an IGT time during submission so I'm assuming you'd want to add up all 5 IGT track times together and just submit that total time in the field. I'm sure @Molotok will do a good job nailing down specifics, but I might suggest we still run an RTA timer mainly to enforce the no pausing/break rules and to prevent people from splicing best attempts together to form their runs. I know there's a way to input IGT times into livesplit so I may try working that out that as well.
Obviously, none of us did this before since we were on RTA, but I think it also might be a good idea in future runs to linger on end screen of each race just so the times are clear and legible on the video; if you commentate maybe even read the time off before continuing just to ensure legitimacy. Putting them in the run description is always a good idea too.
