For the complete 5 coaster scenarios, stop the clock at last player action (e.g. hitting yellow or green light on 5th coaster or last scenery placement).

Reason: the time the game takes to register scenario completion can vary by more than 20 seconds. Who wants to be at the mercy of RNG to that extent?

Here's an (actual) example in which we wait on a 5th coaster (Steel Wild Mouse) with a ride time of 45 seconds. (Other 4 coasters already tested.) Playthrough 1: All coasters in test mode by 2m30s. Ratings display after 48 seconds. Scenario completes 2 seconds later. Final time: 3m20s Playthrough 2: All coasters in test mode by 2m20s. Ratings display after 54 seconds. Scenario completes 7 seconds later. Final time: 3m21s

I don't know how or how often the game does the calculations. It's chaos.

This suggestion may seem to cater specifically to my personal playstyle by punishing scenery placement after putting all coasters into operation. i.e. normal player reaches target Excitement for the coaster with a 20 second build time and 5 seconds of scenery placement, and I with a 25 second build time and 0 seconds of scenery placement. Currently, that gives them a 5 second advantage. Under the proposed change, we're equal. More importantly, scenery spammers are also at the mercy of the RNG, and may feel compelled to keep redoing the whole scenario until they do it well AND the game registers the completion quickly. Me not using scenery was an unnecessary flex, but it's not like it's terribly unreasonable to measure the amount of time it took the player to perform all the actions necessary to complete the scenario. "Last Player Action" would be similar to an Open RCT2 FF run (without going through the rigmarole of fast-forwarding), though there are significant differences in how coasters function between the two games.

Another, slightly more complicated alternative, which keeps the scenery spammer advantage: Stop the clock when last coaster's train arrives back at the station and restraints come up--when the bottom stats show up, and E.I.N. are still pending. That's basically scenario completion minus the random interval, so it wouldn't influence a change in playstyle. Cons: Requires the windows to be open to the stat tab or the station to be visible (or stations, in the case of Dusty Desert, which are too far apart for this).

Many things I see issue with, personally.

1. The last action does not guarantee that the rides are going to meet E.I.N. ratings. There are several instances of scenarios where certain ride placement (sometimes over water, or on land) actually alter E.I.N. stats to not meet the scenario needs. (See Cobra in Infernal Views).
2. Creating rules for a speedrun that aim to balance differing playstyles seems counter to the idea of speedrunning a game based on it's mechanics. If scenery placement after is currently saving the most time, then that's just how the game works. I don't think nerfing or trying to "balance" a speedrun makes any sense.
3. "Stop the clock when last coaster's train arrives back at the station and restraints come up--when the bottom stats show up, and E.I.N. are still pending." Again, no guarantee that pending stats will meet requirements, it makes sense to show them.

"That's basically scenario completion minus the random interval, so it wouldn't influence a change in playstyle." The game works on tick system, so this "random interval" is just a part of the game and a part of the speedrun.

I like the way you laid out your concerns, but I just don't think there is any need to further complicate timing when the game has a system of timing working on it's own.

The game works on tick system, so this "random interval" is just a part of the game and a part of the speedrun.

This is the most important thing. Almost all games work on a sort of tick system. In Super Mario Bros you can only save time on every level in intervals of 0.35 seconds, and in RCT1 the park value is recalculated only once ever 12.8 seconds.

I don't know how it exactly works, but I can guarantee that the stat calculation of the rides and the subsequent beating of the scenario works in a similar way. It is the speedrunner's job to learn the system and work around it.

Thanks for commenting.

Re: 1. "The last action does not guarantee that the rides are going to meet E.I.N. ratings." That's a strange thing to say. What would you call such a category of speedrunning, where you don't even beat the scenario??? Re: 2. The goal isn't to balance or nerf. That's just a side-effect I wanted to bring up. How "the game works" is how this community has defined it. Hell, you don't wait for the scenario completion screen on normal scenarios. Re: 3. Yeah, it makes sense to show them. It's nice, but the completion window also indicates you met requirements. Maybe the player forgets, maybe the handful of past runs don't show them--it was just something to consider with this option.

If it wasn't clear, I expected videos will show both the selecting of the scenario, and the completion window popping up--even if that's not where the clock stops.

Speaking of clarity, that's the real issue: The rules say "The timer begins when you enter the scenario, and it ends when the goal is met." Is the goal met when you meet it, when the ride windows say you meet it, or when the park window says you meet it? I might be advocating for how the rules already are!

Marcel: Admittedly I don't give a dang about park value Scenarios. Super Mario Bros... imagine doing individual Mario levels where there are 200 places you can lose time in the run. If Mario randomly wandered around for 2 to 30 seconds after grabbing the flagpole/crossing the line into the black/jumping through the goalpost before going offscreen--and the speedrun.com clock stopped when he left the screen not when you finished--that would be a similar situation.

Are you saying that a speedrunner who learns the secret of the calculations would earn themselves that advantage? That would be fine, but I suspect the only thing you can do differently that will affect it is finish faster. Hey, I already thought of doing that.

Maybe RNG in waiting for guests to enter the park to match the soft guest cap has been a pain for you. I'm trying to quarantine the "finish 5" scenarios.

Re1 "The last action does not guarantee that the rides are going to meet E.I.N. ratings." That's a strange thing to say. What would you call such a category of speedrunning, where you don't even beat the scenario???"

• I had mentioned this as an example in Infernal Views, where a ride may not have the EIN values needed to complete the scenario on last piece, which is why it's important to ensure it has run through test to get stats. (Cobra on Infernal Views, if not placed on land, has received 5.98 Excitement, not 6 necessary). Thus the standard is to wait for scenario completion to pop.

Re: 2. "The goal isn't to balance or nerf. That's just a side-effect I wanted to bring up. How "the game works" is how this community has defined it. Hell, you don't wait for the scenario completion screen on normal scenarios."

• In Original% there is lenience on saying a scenario is done whenever goals are met, if there weren't nearly every scenario would be speedrun at the same speed by reaching a calendar date. In the case of ride builders like Volcania, the scenario completion window will pop up on a tick based interval after the scenario goal is met, that is when time stops. Scenario Completion in FF% is a very handy tool that allows for a defined end to speedrunning and has been accepted for quite some time as the "end point" for runs.

Re "If it wasn't clear, I expected videos will show both the selecting of the scenario, and the completion window popping up--even if that's not where the clock stops."

• This was not clear at all in the original post. You were mentioning last action being the end of the run, not the scenario completion. Scenario completion will have appeared in these runs when the build goals are met, not when the last ride is built and untested.

Re"Speaking of clarity, that's the real issue: The rules say "The timer begins when you enter the scenario, and it ends when the goal is met." Is the goal met when you meet it, when the ride windows say you meet it, or when the park window says you meet it? I might be advocating for how the rules already are!"

• When the park window appears and shows completion (in the scenarios you reference). I'm sure that language could be clearer.

Re "Maybe RNG in waiting for guests to enter the park to match the soft guest cap has been a pain for you. I'm trying to quarantine the "finish 5" scenarios."

• This comes across as unnecessarily aggressive.

Aggressive? There is no hostility in THAT statement. That's just me trying to relate to you guys and understand why you'd advocate for including RNG. Perhaps emotional reasons? Because there is no logic anywhere in your responses.

Assuming videos wouldn't include proof of beating the scenario?? Why submit a video at all? "I beat it, trust me."

Your ENTIRE argument for park window is "the game works the way it works." Yet, you are cognizant of the fact that we don't go by how the game works for the MAJORITY of scenarios. It's not conducive to speedrunning so we completely disregard it. The rules are 100% an arbitrary decision by this community. As it is for 'guest goal', so is it for 'finish 5'. Chris Sawyer isn't forcing us to do it the way you think it should be done. It is a choice.

Hindsight is 20/20. If the scenario completion popped up, we can extrapolate with great certainty that the requirements were met at the player's last action. If all coasters show 7+ Excitement on Dusty Desert, the scenario completion is inevitable.

If you WANT to include the random intervals, that is a CHOICE. In no way is "how the game works" enforcing this upon you. The game didn't stop the community from making rules for speedrunning guest goals. No matter what the rules are for 'finish 5', they will be determined by thoughts, feelings, and judgment about the game, not by the game itself. The game does certain things. Humans decide how to work with that.

I'd like to point out Marcel is making guarantees while providing nothing to back them up. Maybe someday a speedrunner will figure out the RNG manip to get instant EIN and completion. If that becomes a thing, it's because you wanted it to be. There's no gun to your head making you go that route. Likewise, if manip isn't possible, "just dealing with it" is a choice. You could just as easily choose not to waste your time messing with that for no reason.

Let's say we're wrong about this and it is indeed entirely random. That just makes us incorrect about something and then we will most likely change the rules.

However, you suggest that we are malicious and want to spite you and other runners because we got screwed over by bad RNG in the past and cannot control our emotions. You don't see how that is aggressive and offensive?

I'd like to point out Marcel is making guarantees while providing nothing to back them up.

I have looked into the OpenRCT2 code and while that's not the RCT1 code, I am quite confident that the two work in similar ways as that has been the case in the past. The game cycles through all the rides in a predetermined order (probably by ride ID) and updates the ratings. This might take a little while and is influenced by other things that need to calculated as well, so depending on where you are in the cycle the stats can get calculated quickly or it might take a while.

I did a test where I built the looping coaster Stingray both in an empty park and in an already built up park. I then saved the game right before the ride finished testing and then reloaded the saves several times to see how long it took before the EIN stats popped up.

It differed between the two save files as they were different parks, but within the same save file it always took the same time, even when restarting the game. This proves that in OpenRCT2 there is no randomness to it (although it can feel random), and that means that that is very likely the case for RCT1 as well.

Assuming this is indeed the case for how it works, it is incredibly hard to take advantage of this system, but not impossible.

Okay guys, I've grown to enjoy only being able to improve times in ~14 second increments. Slightly faster Tiny Towers: psh, who cares. 1m38.5s Tiny Towers: hell yeah!

Don't get too pedantic about "RNG". While it's unlikely that the game would intentionally generate a random number for when to start EIN calculations, I haven't been able to rule it out. As the world's leading expert in the field, I can say it's still random as heck. In any case, the effect is the same, unless you can play like a robot--and maybe even if you do play like a robot.

Marcel, your "proof" is like saying, "I saved state in this boss battle in Final Fantasy and it drops the same thing every time, so drops aren't random," where if you saved state before engaging the boss you'd see different drops at random.