I don't know if I can start this discussion. I just believe it. PS3 and GCN dispute is totally unfair These categories should be separated. I've seen comments like playing x or y is user problem Not quite how it works. If I create a GCN skip door code and beat the world record Can I also say that this is the problem of others? Of course not, so I believe so, the separation of categories is quite fair.
Just an extra info I'm a collector and admirer of Resident Evil franchise I have all versions of this game I believe the dolphin emulator version is the prettiest there is But the problem is the slow menus and impossible to skip credits. See with your own eyes, see the image of this test I did in the video below. Obviously this is not a valid race, but I only did to show the brutal difference.
Hi, thanks for sharing your concerns
Firstly, we used to have separated categories, but the leaderboards looked far too messy, containing every version of the game. We decided to merge the boards because most of the runners used a japanese PS3 version of the game. At this time we will not be separating the categories.
Secondly, we will not be adding any form of door skip/modding in this game. It's just gunna cause more mess on the leaderboards. Speedrunning should be as simple as turning on the game and doing a run. I would like to hear other peoples views too. Feel free to respond
@Victor.Kratos I will respond, but I'd like to ask first...
Since you say:
[quote]I have all versions of this game[/quote]
Why would you be arguing to play a slower version of the game? You already have the Xbox/PS3 version according to you, so why not just play that?
It's funny because out of all the Resident Evil main games, the PC version is the most popular/competitive version, and most people say it's because it's the fastest version. Yet, on this game, people argue to play a slower version of the game.
You are correct, there is no point in comparing GCN and PS3, but that's why there are filters in place on the leaderboard so you can see what the fastest time is for each version
Another issue is that Dreamcast is actually the fastest SD version based on IGT. The end credits does not count toward the IGT on Dreamcast only, even though you cannot skip them. (See Poppo's Glitchless run for proof.)
So we'd have to find the fairest Dreamcast emulator, and then also separate out Dreamcast emu vs. Dreamcast console vs. CVX emu (which would basically be GCN) vs CVX SD console vs CVX HD console. This would make the boards a fair bit messier.
I originally advocated SD vs HD, but given the nature of CV/CVX and its different versions, I'm not so sure.
I think the leaderboards are fine as they are. If you want to get a competitive time then you need to run the fastest version imo.
silentkaster My case is something private I really don't fit in ps3 The game is dark and the controls look fuzzy I believe I will have to play unfortunately The point is that Dolphin is much better and has better controls than ps3 or ps4. Why not put the category where time ends by killing alexia? On-screen timer required and ready if closed. Do you think it's fair a competition where A user has to wait the credit time. Separating gcn from the rest is sensible at best
silentkaster Another thing Do you know the optimization projects of this game in dolphin? a quality of textures and elements in it far superior to ps3 There is no way to compare with this version of Dreamcast. The big problems is that the game itself is slower at times, for example, its beauty itself makes these things go unnoticed. Anyone with eyes can see. Go to my channel and watch a recent video of veronica code and compare with ps3.
Filters exist for a reason.
And you can't just separate GCN and PS3, you have to then separate everything including, in my opinion, Emu from Console. Too much mess.
Kratos on PS3, you up the brightness in your capture card and it looks perfect. Also "Expanded Color Range" will make it brighter too. I had the same issue
I'm in favor of separating the categories and using door skip mod. All the other classic RE's separate their categories and it looks just fine. Also why would you not want to spare 45+ minutes of your life every run?
Let's be honest this is one of the least speedrunned RE games despite the fact that it is probably one of the best RE games out there. Nobody will ever bother to beat a WR in GCN, Emulators, Dreamcast, PS2 or PS4 and put a real effort unless there is a separate category.
@uhTrance you wrote: "Basically nobody plays this game and it annoys me. I would like to spark up some competition of adding a segmented category. I will add this if you guys approve."
so you rather add a category of your interest to spark competition than adding categories that the community is asking for, here from @Victor.Kratos and also here: https://www.speedrun.com/cvx/thread/muihs and here: https://www.speedrun.com/cvx/thread/3v9cj
It seems to me that this game is moderated like a private club. @uhTrance I respect you as a runner, you are the best, and used to follow your streams, but I must say I don't like the way you represent this game being a moderator, with poor arguments against potential runners excited about running the game. You should be an ambassador of the game and be open to pretty fair arguments from @Victor.Kratos @Khomchik @west4it @dveki @serg_d11 @WitchRain @Poppo @MrPopo333
Let's all you top runners be honest, if the version of PS4 came out recently was for any reason (menuing, dialogs etc..) quicker than the version for PS3 and people started to beat your times you would have created a separated category for PS4 immediately! You would not have been so happy to just use the filters and say "hey I have the best time on PS3" while not actually showed first in the "all together" leaderboard.
My two cents.
@WitchRain The "Mod" in question looks like pressing a hotkey to speed up an emulator by 10x. its not professional or consistent so it will not be used whatsoever. And even if there was some kind of mod, it will not be used on this game
@Rapix The post i made regarding a segmented category was in 2015. 4 years ago. It was added, nobody ran it so i removed it. If a PS4/PC HD version of the game was released, i would just run that and keep the leaderboard the same, but if capcom was going to make a PC version they would have done it when the PC version of RE4 was going to come out, or when they ported the PS2 version to the PS4
Utrance In IGT is 100% consistent the technique I used But in the time shown at the end not In acceleration used in Dolphin, the character cannot move if the game is accelerated. However, during the door animation, time goes crazy At the end of the race, the time shown will be at least 3x longer. This really could not be applied Actually it's good for training only
...or all console separated and one selected emulator to let PC gamer run the game, and so that everyone can run the game no matter what hardware they have, and every category is a fair competition.
The only possible separation for me is HD/SD, i don't think doorskip is a good idea
If this change happens, please separate GCN Emu from Console.
That is all.
Alright, here's my essay.
First of all, I'm going to keep this respectful on all sides. I'm trying not to be disrespectful and writing this in a neutral tone, so if you take something I say as disrespectful, it's not. Because I understand the sides on both arguments. So I'm going to start here.
I respectfully disagree with Trance on the verbiage and "tone" he used when he wrote this.
[quote]If someone does a run that is as optimised as my runs, I will change the categories so that people can run on an emulated potato and call it a WR. Until then, people need to put time into their runs and make them better. I have put ATLEAST 800 hours into CVX, and to have someone else come out of the woodwork and do a shit run and call it a WORLD RECORD is very degrading.[/quote]
I don't think holding a WR is an argument for changing/not changing anything. I used to have PS3 runs (and still do that are now obsolete) on the board that didn't beat the SD versions of the game, which meant that their runs were over six minutes more optimized than mine based on credit time alone.
Runners of the game don't necessarily need to have WR's, or be striving to beat WR's, to run the game. If an argument is meritable, I don't care if the WR holder or the last place person makes it, it's a meritable argument.
I also think that his verbiage was intentionally, and unnecessarily, inflammatory, as the exchanges were a bit heated. That being said, I don't think he's been that way in this thread.
However, I will now get to you, @Rapix.
When you say:
[quote]Let's be honest this is one of the least speedrunned RE games despite the fact that it is probably one of the best RE games out there. Nobody will ever bother to beat a WR in GCN, Emulators, Dreamcast, PS2 or PS4 and put a real effort unless there is a separate category.[/quote]
I would disagree. The reason that this game isn't run as much as the others, in my opinion, is because there is no PC version. That's unfortunate, I agree. However, there are no door skips, and no easy way to run it on PC without using emulator.
Look at Survivor and Dead Aim, also without PC versions. Those games have even fewer runners. And sure, they're not as well known, but they're easier to emulate than this game, and even have more "breaks" for the runners including not counting IGT during menuing.
With the separation of PC and Console categories on these games, strategies can change. For example, on RE1 console for the main category, Jill Any%, it's faster on all console/emu versions to take the cutscene with Barry to get acid rounds, but not on PC version because of the door skip. On RE2 and RE3, you must actually time the door skips to get the optimal skips to run the game, but you don't bother on console. On RE3, in the city, the route changes for console/PC, because of the door skips themselves and saving some extra time. On Remaster, console actually locks the player to 30 fps, whereas on PC version, a player can choose 60 or a variable frame rate.
So, in addition to the lack of door skips on console, the categories are separated not just based on hardware limitations, but strategy. This, in my mind, necessitates more of a reason for separation.
Then, it needs to be further separated, based on the individual hardwares themselves and their own limitations. Mixing all console runs together when gamecube is the fastest in RE2, for example, would then not really be much of a separation. So they further divide.
Yet in those games, many of the console categories are completely dead. Literally 0 runs. Check Dreamcast RE2. Check Sega Saturn RE1. You'll see what I mean.
So people play the PC versions because they're the most competitive. Unfortunately, CVX doesn't have that, so we can't just input that.
And there's another reason why the PC versions are the most played, but we'll get to that later.
But hanging on this point for now, when you say:
[quote]Let's all you top runners be honest, if the version of PS4 came out recently was for any reason (menuing, dialogs etc..) quicker than the version for PS3 and people started to beat your times you would have created a separated category for PS4 immediately![/quote]
As a top three runner, I feel I can answer. And I'm sorry to say, but this is hypocritical for you to say. How you might ask? Well, let's go back to Trance's statement.
[quote]I have put ATLEAST 800 hours into CVX, and to have someone else come out of the woodwork and do a shit run and call it a WORLD RECORD is very degrading.[/quote]
I'm going to break down what he said here a bit more plainly.
MrSilentVid, Trance, myself and many of the other runners have done the following:
Purchased or obtained a PS3 Purchased or obtained a capture card Set up a Japanese PSN account, which is actually a lot more involved than it sounds. Purchased the game on the JPN PSN store (or a physical copy.) Btw, for this, you cannot just buy the game. You have to actually go and pay a Japanese PSN Gift Card site for them to sell you a gift card (which they take a commission) and to set this up actually can take up to a few days. Purchased, built or otherwise obtained a PC(s) strong enough to stream from said capture card and maintain fluid video/gameplay. Purchased a splitter, which is needed for PS3 streaming, or obtained one of the rarer capture cards, some of which are no longer produced, to bypass HDCP to stream/record runs. Set up and download on OBS to fine tune color, brightness, etc for decent quality videos. Practiced and ran the game enough to obtain top, competitive times.
So when you ask what I would do if, say, the PS4 version had a skip or was faster to run...well I'd run it on my PS4 and have to do some of the steps above again. I might even get a PS4 professional if I felt it was worth it and would play the game faster.
Now, let's contrast that to what you want to do.
Download a rom. Download Dolphin. Download OBS. Plug and Play.
You can run it on virtually any laptop with Windows 8 or newer. No money spent, no effort beyond a 15 minute or less wait in most places of the world.
So what I think Trance is trying to say, or at least meant with that sentiment, is that those of us who took the time, set up the game, run the game, and paid for the materials necessary to obtain a top time feel a bit insulted when someone like you says, "I should be able to play too, but I am unwilling to go through all the same effort you did."
So do you see why it's a bit hypocritical for you to project unto us what we would do if someone beat our times, when you're not even willing to put in the effort to do what we did?
And sure, maybe you can't afford it, or maybe it's just not easily accessible, or some other myriad of reasons. But that's the thing. If you wanted to speedrun Horizon Zero Dawn, for instance, you'd have to purchase the game and a way to stream it. It's not on PC. It's a console exclusive.
And you might say, "But I don't want to speedrun that, I want to speedrun this." Well, this is a console exclusive. Just because you can make a rom out of it and play it in an emulator doesn't change the fact that it is made for console.
Let me ask you this...if Dolphin or any of the emulator services that you choose to play on decided to charge you the amount that a capture card/PS3 would cost you, would you still want to run the game?
If the answer to that is no, then isn't your argument a bit invalid?
(And that brings us to the second reason most of the top runners play PC. It's essentially free to them, and we'll get back to this shortly.)
I don't think we're gonna have a rush of people that have GameCube consoles only, or Dreamcast consoles only rushing to playing this game if SD was opened up. I think it would just be Dolphin/emu runners, which brings me to the point of the integrity of runs.
If people are let in, using emulators, this will likely become the most run category. This compromises the integrity of the game when it comes to official competitions. Why? Because most of these copies will be illegal copies.
It's not so bad in the other RE's because not that many people run emulator since there is a perfectly working PC version of the game. And yes, I'm aware that most people probably download these versions somewhere without paying. However, there is a factor of plausible deniability there. For instance, you could have purchased the PC version somewhere as a digital download, or simply purchased a different version of the game, but due to lack of optical drive, couldn't play it and therefore had to do a digital mounting of the game.
But with emulator, that deniability factor goes out the window. Unless you can demonstrate that you made a rom of the game and that you own a physical copy, that implies you don't have a legal copy of the game. It's even less believable if you're using a Rom that has door skip, which means that you'd have to demonstrate not only how to make a rom with your legal copy of the game, but that you know how to modify the rom itself to skip doors.
And if we have a game that its most run category is off illegal copies, then the integrity of the game goes down quite a bit.
Running SD vs HD would not be great, either upon further review. Talking to Nurmat today, I found out that the Dreamcast emulators crash on loading Disc 2. This means that the fastest version of the SD game is not reliably able to be run on emulator.
So what's to stop someone, like say, me, to take the WR's on my Dreamcast console? I'll have a six minute head start on anyone on emu, and then you're back in the same boat, even though my run may not be as optimized as the next player down who didn't use Dreamcast.
We could have RTA submitted along with IGT I suppose. Or give an allowance to players using the emu versions which would be the credits. But that gets a bit messy and could open up inconsistencies based on PC hardware.
I understand the want for wanting to open up the categories. And honestly, I wouldn't mind more competition and players as this is my favorite RE and what made me fall in love with the series. And many of the emulator players have helped me with lines, or answered questions about RNG, etc. But I think that if you really want to make a statement...then you should do that. Put your desires into action, first. Start uploading runs to the board, competing with each other, and making it so that it looks like there's a real demand for this. Heck, I'd even submit runs on emu if it meant competing with some of you who are my friends. But as of right now, I just don't see the reason, and so must respectfully side against splitting the board.
@silentkaster I really appreciate the time you put in writing all of this, and I mostly agree with you.
I do not agree with you only when you define with effort the behind the scene: buy hardware, japanese gift cards, setup software etc.. I mean, with effort we should only describe time spent running the game.
I obviously still disagree on the solution as not separating the categories, at least all console or just SD/HD in order to see if this increases competition. Obviously it is fair to assume that nowadays there are more XboxOne/PS4 than PS3 out there?
I'm sorry for PC/EMU since it has so much potential in opening up the game to a much larger audience, but I get your points.
Anyway, I hope I didn't sound disrespectful in any of my posts, if so it wasn't meant to.
Let's just politely agree to disagree. :)
