Hi everyone! I just noticed that the current rules for Terra tubes can be confusing for the most of the new people or even for old runners also. I mean the spike skips. Maybe it would be better to allow all the spike skips except the last one (pixel perfect spike skip in the last checkpoint)? I mean there is only the one spike skip that is not allowed after the wheels (eel part). Or is it already allowed? I'm also confused :D Yeah, I know that it skips some small upper part, but I don't think it does look like a major skip. I think the logic for this category is not doing big major skips. And the other two spike skips that are allowed look almost similar.

Just want to chime in to say thanks for the lenience and verifying the run in question here! To be honest coming from any% I kind of did that part on autopilot and didn't even consider that I was skipping something. I'd be completely fine with removing the run depending on the outcome of this thread (maybe I'm optimistic but I hope to beat the time somewhere in the near future anyway :D).

On the subject, I'd be fine with either decision but I can imagine it's unfair to the current runs to allow it (since they could have potentially shaved off a couple of seconds had they been allowed to spike skip).

Maybe this is for a seperate thread, but I'm also not completely clear on coop 100% rules. I don't see anyone doing the glitches where you pick up the other toad in elevator and revolution but the rules don't explicitly mention those aren't allowed. I assume those are okay since you're showing 100% of the content? Though the same argument could be made for rat race pick-up.

I've thought about this recently too Ukionik. I'm really glad you brought this up.

TL;DR The reason we disallowed that 3-spike column skip is because in doing so, you're not displaying the full path of the game at least somewhere on the screen. But this logic also has its problems, which is why I'm somewhat reconsidering on whether to lift the ban myself, and I'll get into that in a bit. (After the .............................. part)

I'll get the backstory out of the way, since the timeline of decisions that led to this category's current status is pretty interesting.

Actually to answer your last part, the logic of the category was to show up the haters. :) To make the Cuphead reference, our 100% category is the Hater% of Battletoads. Before 100% existed, TMR & I would get negative comments about our skips, complaining that our hard work was not impressive because some difficult content was being skipped. While this is hilarious to anyone who knows the difficulty of actually performing these skips in comparison to playing without them, we felt that simply responding in words was not enough. So now we have this category as a hilarious in-joke proving how backward their logic was, since pleasing them turned out to make the run way easier, not harder. :)

So, little by little, we discussed all the things to keep in the run. The spinner skips, the 1ups, the weapons, the double dash jump, the top final section of arctic cavern, everything that seems obvious now was debatable back then. The spike skips in Terra Tubes were particularly more difficult for the two of us to discuss. Originally, I wanted to ban all of them. That means banning the pixel skip, the 3-spike column skip of section 3, the 2-spike column skip in section 5, AND the lesser talked about 1 spike skip at the end of section 3, right before the checkpoint. But TMR made a point that I liked. "It's the same path, it's just going under a spike instead of over!" I couldn't argue with that.

But we still disallowed the 3-spike column skip. Why? I guess it's because it looks so much more like a real skipping of content than the others. That awkward jump out of the water at the top is actually not easy, and we definitely could see the possibility of someone complaining about it. But it's not exactly a good thing simply to base a rule on what something 'looks like'.

So we deliberated further on what to call the 'official' rule, since we were racing each other for fun at the time and we kept finding these questionable tiny things to squabble about. We were still doing the spinner skips after all, and both of us refused to take them since they were clearly more impressive-looking to skip. And we weren't picking up all the lives or all the weapons. So what would 100% be? 100% of what exactly? What are 100% of the things the haters care about?

Then the idea came. Just show all of the locations of the intended path through the game on screen. It made sense of why we were disallowing the 3-spike column skip, and why we were allowing the others, all the while allowing us to do our spinner skips and 1up skips & weapon skips we were already doing. It was brilliant.

.............................................

Now, the problem I've noticed since then -- First of all, if you just look closely at warpless or any% right there, as you swim up on the left, the location being bypassed IS being shown on screen in the top right corner! Sort of... well, more like 'sometimes'. And only just barely. You have to swim pretty specifically to make it happen, but it absolutely can and does happen.

Second, even if this weren't the case, what's stopping us from simply doing the spike skip and swimming upwards a little bit to show above the top spike and swim back down? Well, I would probably argue today that it doesn't fit the theme of 'pleasing the haters' by not doing that awkward jump out of the water. But then that wouldn't be a very solid argument, since it changes the official rule that justifies our decisions, and 'pleasing the haters' is an awful catalyst for official rulemaking, since we can't read minds.

But while it doesn't change that it was our main goal in the beginning, I'm willing to accept that this is not the case today, as it's become our 2nd most competitive category now. The same is happening to the Hater% of Cuphead, which I find hilarious as well.

So that is why I'm reconsidering it, but I'm not fully decided. It would be great if we could get a few more opinions on this, if anybody has any thoughts. It's a big decision at this point, since all of the existing runs would be at a 3-second handicap. But at least it doesn't render any existing runs invalid, which would be the case if this situation were the inverse, such as banning a previously-allowed skip. Thankfully this is the much lesser evil.

That's about the full story. What do you think?

Well this is way to complex for me to understand. Hope all the runners show here and discuss the topic. Sounds pretty interesting. I think if is 100% the best name for this category? and also I think do not invalid any run. Thanks friend for caring, that is pretty cool, shows love and respect to this game

The other reason I thought about that 3-column spike skip is because of the rat race stage.

We found that you can skip floors if you press the punch button before the rat falls down.

So it allows you to skip some floors. And it can be considered like you skip the intended route.

Than's why I thought what could be the right route :D

I think it's better to leave the rules as they are if no one is against them. Because it's hard to make universal rules for this category.

For that one, we allow it because the camera still displays the full path. I understand that it skips past some platforms and hazards, but we've ultimately ruled on not letting the enemies, items, platforms or hazards dictate how fast we're allowed to go. Only the camera.

I'll use level 8 as an example of why, since it is virtually similar to Rat Race except it goes up instead of down. if the rules said we had to touch the intended platforms on the way up, we'd have to debate too many specific jumps in a way that I believe would ruin the experience.

So no one is against that all spike skips in Terra Tubes should be allowed I think. Except the last one before the spinners, because it skips a significant part of the level. I asked JC, he doesn't mind. I also don't mind. If someone is against it, we can discuss it here.

That works for me! I think that the run is balanced really nicely in sticking to and showing the intended route while still having cool tricks and tech to go for. These "glitchless routes" can be tough to balance. NES Metroid has 100% Classic and that doesn't allow ANYTHING: not even block clipping. Because of that the run is painfully boring and the WR not very competitive...

If I understand correctly, the spike skip sort of in question is the first one in the swimming section? Sorry if I muddied the waters with that one. Lol. I picked that up from watching TMR's Any% PB and didn't even think twice about allow-ability since it doesn't really deviate from the main path.

NOT allowing that last one makes sense since it requires a very specific setup and bypasses a big portion of that swimming section. Plus, figuring out how to navigate the gold fish and shark is unique for the category.