There has been a new idea lately for a new interesting category, which aims at having the Any% NMG-speedrun-experience but without the "frame-perfect" manipulations to pre-plan/predict the outcomes of battles. The latter might be a high-entrance barrier and may be annoying/too challenging to new runners, so maybe a "more chill"-category could be a cool idea.
The first drafts were to have a category with Any% NMG-rules with the addition of not allowing boss-drops (e.g. Catfish Jewel) to be used and disallowing entering save-tiles without actually saving.
Most recent testing showed that stepping on a save-tile and actually using it (as in actually saving) doesn't reset the RNG in a way that it can be manipulated to de-RNG the outcome of upcoming battles.
And disallowing random boss-drops is to not have an outstanding advantage from runs that actually drop the item in the "dev-intended random way".
There are 3 highlights of finished runs under these rules yet, done by: @RealCritical:
and @Skipsy
A few other Lufia II / AC-community members also showed interest in the category, when there was talk about it on the L2 AC-community discord.
@Deln / @eLmaGus / @HappySquid89 / @Kriegspyre : it would be cool if the moderation team would consider this approach to become a new category on the leaderboards. Having a leaderboard might draw more attention to the game and the category.
Hey Bamboo,
Shouldn't be a problem to create this category, I just need specifics for the ruling on this.
The only problem I can see potentially arising on this is that I am not 100% convinced you couldnt manipulate the RNG if you save everywhere, I haven't tested it but if you always do the same thing you should be able to find common ground. (this is really just a minor ruling thing anyways tbh since people who would want to run this probably would do so to get into the game rather than actually tryharding the manips anyways).
But yeah sure just let me know what rules you would like to see for the Category and make sure there isnt anything we have to think about making the rules and then I will add it if you guys want it!
Cheers
There's a route that I created for this, which has our (Derxu/Skipsy/mine) ideas of what would make sensible rules for such a category in the addendum part of it. That can be found here:
https://storymode.ancientcave.net/nomanip/#categoryrules (note that the route itself is still a work in progress and needs refining in a lot of places; it is, however, complete and fully runable)
That's also where I go into how to avoid unintentional RNG manipulation, and aside from being able to manipulate the initially created save data (which cannot be safely regulated), it is actually surprisingly waterproof. I tested everything mentioned in that section - not extensively, but enough that I can comfortably say it should be reliable.
And disallowing random boss-drops is to not have an outstanding advantage from runs that actually drop the item in the "dev-intended random way".
While that's not wrong, I'd phrase it a different way, My original idea with this rule was to prevent people from having to reset over and over for no reason. With as big of an advantage as especially the Catfish Jwl. is, in a category that disallows RNG manipulation, soft-enforcing a reset grind seems like a terrible idea. Now, this rule (just like the rest of them) was written not for an src leaderboard, but for what the three of us at the time thought was a cool challenge run. While I do think it is a very sensible rule and makes the category magnitudes more enjoyable to play, it isn't a rule I would consider to be typically "speedrun-esque". It is, while practical, undoubtedly arbitrary, and as such possibly not fit for the category. If the run were to be added, I would like to see this rule featured in the ruleset, but that's not my decision to make obviously.
And as a final remark - as I said, the category has mainly been considered a challenge run by the original three of us, and as mentioned in the doc, those willing to run it can still submit it to the Lufia 2 Any% NMG (US) leaderboard. I said in a discussion in the AC discord a little while ago that "noone asked for it to be its own category on the leaderboard" (which obviously has changed now), but I don't disagree with it becoming one. My personal opinion is that it's a fun and interesting category that isn't too arbitrary for an src leaderboard, and it might do for the game as a whole what it has done for Derxu/Skipsy/me - give you a(nother) fun way to speedrun the main game, especially if RNG manipulation isn't interesting.
Since the restriction of not manipulating really changes the way you'd the speedrun compared to the regular manipped Any%, I personally think it's a great addition to the leaderboard (even if it might be "just" a Misc. category).
There are other games, which have a category specifically serving the purpose of not manipping major parts in the game (e.g. Golden Sun I+II, Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow, several Pokémon games), even if it'd be just for having a good race-category, because that's also a thing people enjoy doing.
The more arbitrary part of banning unique boss drops (Catfish Jewel in particular) is imo really important, as RealCritical said above, to prevent people from resetting over a small drop chance like 10 mins in the run, once the speedruns of the category would become more and more optimized, so that the money from these items would actually highly impact the early game route. (To draw a comparison to a different game, in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow all enemy drops, which are not necessary to finish the game are also banned in the Manipless category)
So for our runs we were using the ruleset noted on RealCritical's website, we initially agreed on:
"- intentional RNG manipulation isn't allowed, and unintentional RNG manipulation has to be avoided where possible
- items dropped by enemies that can't be farmed indefinitely (such as most drops from bosses) can't be used in any way (meaning they can't be equipped, sold, fed), but they don't have to be dropped
-the music menu exploit is banned "
About preventing manipulation (and this maybe needs a little re-phrasing but you should get the idea): Based on RealCritical's work/research, the "RNG seed" is different if you create a different save, in which you did something that affected RNG, before starting a run.
So I'd suggest including the process of creating a different save game before a run into the rules somehow.
It's been a fun journey so far a being represented on the leaderboards would be great (and hopefully would make new people interested).
Just to summarize so I get this right:
-No RNG Manipulation (period, intentional or uninentional doesnt matter) PS: Clarify to avoid the uninentional part, creating random savefiles every so often is advised (should be enforced?) -Boss drops are banned (Cant be used/sold/fed) -Same Glitch Restriction as NMG (which means for instance you would still be allowed to walk on air in Gratze before you get the engine)
If that is all of it I will make the category tomorrow, lmk if there is anything else
I dunno if this matters, but I'll consider running this lovely arbitrary category myself some day. For conveniences sake and for those who have a turbo controller: would it make sense to include a "Turbo: Yes/No"-column, to show which runners use turbo-controllers?
Turbo isn't really an advantage in L2 as far as I know, but it enables the player to actually enjoy a few smaller breaks throughout a quite long run. And since you can buffer/forward most textboxes frame perfectly, I think allowing turbo would not really put turbo users in a huge advantage. Of course they'll have an advantage, because the machine is doing "the work" for them. But yeah, the main reason why I'd run this with turbo is, that there are no real long breaks (which I most def. would need for such a long run...)
I don't mind adding that column or allowing it in general but that is also something i cant decide just by myself since it affects past runs aswell (if I were to allow it I would want it for all runs not just a specific category)
Technically speaking, looking at the current rules it's not even forbidden iirc. Though I know it's "common sense" or whatever between SNES speedrun-communities to not use turbo-features.
But yeah, would be glad if you maybe check this out with ya fellow mods! Thanks!
Category has been up and running for a couple of days now if you guys wanted to submit your runs :>
Ah, I only just noticed it, and submitted my run to that category as well. Thanks!
Some feedback as far as the category rules are concerned, given that I did spend some time tinkering with them. It's picky feedback for sure, and could be considered "identical enough" with a less critical view for sure, but let me mention it at least for posterity.
RNG Manipulation is banned in this category, it does not Matter whether it is intentional or unintentional
The reason why I originally went with the phrasing "unintentional RNG manipulation has to be avoided where possible" is that playing the game is for the most part unintentional RNG manipulation, as everything that causes the RNG to advance would fall under that aspect... which is most of what you do in battle, or on a dungeon map. What I intended with the phrase "has to be avoided where possible" is that you should create a save file that's unknown to you before the game, and if you want to save during the run, stick to the procedure described in my doc, and if you do (and of course avoid intentional RNG manipulation as well), everything that happens is fair game as far as RNG is concerned - that is the important difference in my mind. Of course, it isn't phrased as in "do what RC says" because people might find other ways of functionally avoiding unintentional RNG manipulation.
Another downside is that runners not intimately familiar with how RNG works in the game (and let's be fair, that will be most of 'em) will not intuitively handle save files the way I described it in my route, which is why I included that description along with the category rules originally... of course, this is a bit more tedious on src, but at least a quick note on what to do and not to do would probably be helpful.
Item Drops from Bosses are banned (can't use/sell/feed)
That is technically a functional change from our ruleset, yet one I don't think makes a difference for the run. I will point out that it's potentially confusing for enemies that appear both as bosses and regular enemies, or just simply seem to be "scripted encounters" rather than bosses, such as the White Dragon battle. Under our ruleset, if you got a Holy Fruit drop from the "boss" battle, you would be allowed to use it because White Dragons appear elsewhere in the game, and you could later farm that fruit if you chose to - under the src rules, you wouldn't be allowed to use the boss drop, but the regular one.
Again, both of these changes are probably close enough, not significant (Holy Fruit is pretty certainly never going to be utilized by a runner, and I can't even think of another boss that falls under that rule), and will be understood by most people... but I like to get as close to water-tight with these things as possible, personally (which is where I'll say that I do recognize that these changes might not be accidential as well, in which case I guess that's fine).
Whether rules will be changed or not, since there's even more confusion from having two different rulesets, I'll edit my route document to point to the src rules instead (but leaving the paragraph about how to avoid unintentional RNG manip as best as possible) some time during the coming weekend.
