Do you specifically need HDMI output? I job interviewed with the $25 or less "1080P Webcam with Microphone, Wansview USB 2.0 Desktop Laptop Computer Web Camera" and got video and audio that were both conspicuously finer than the other people in group interviews. Outputs h.264 encoded video over USB so no need for capture card. You may not accept that it's 30 fps versus 60 fps but price point is what it is. If you want to add in microphone voice over, easy to do in OBS or the equivalent.
This is a general speedrunning question. Joysticks put shoulder buttons on the main pad and I can map a controller to Steam and launch through that if the PC game doesn't support button remapping. Hori made the HPS-07 that maps L1, L2, R1 and R2 to the main pad for PS1 and currently makes controllers that map 2 of the 4 shoulder buttons for PS3/PS4, Xbox One and Switch.
Maybe no one has an opinion and that's okay. I have a PC and Switch compatible joystick I can test for myself. Just was interested in SNES/SFC.
Hori made SNES/SFC controllers ostensibly for fighting games with the L and R buttons on the main pad versus the top left and right corners. Without considering the turbo ability, can you play faster with that change?
Not limited to SNES, plenty of USB adapters that work with SNES controllers on PC.
Edit for image: https://imgur.com/a/KpNyf5p
Good work here and comparing against the different releases! I think rather than bot to mine all the tarot possibilities for various name entries, we could construct the actual algorithms the game uses and instead use botting for optimal routes and timing windows. I've never used Lua, might be a good time to start learning...
Your thread's high page views took me by surprise. Even if only 3 or so people are actively speedrunning this game, I'm glad that the interest in figuring out Ogre Battle's rather cryptic game mechanics remains.
I spent a few hours catching up to speed on assembly and debugging and made some progress: https://pastebin.com/7gw9Vrs1
Nothing exciting to report but I'm fairly confident the solutions can be found. I hope it's helpful to anyone with microprocessor or low level (C or C++) programming experience.
You should just submit and mention it should be under a new Devil category in the description. You basically already asked and it's not remotely controversial.
Perhaps you're seen that Dragondarch has two separate Devil runs on YouTube. I believe he chose not to publish them here versus mods deciding not to create the category. Someone correct me if wrong.
You should submit the Devil run! It is distinct from Any% like you're saying and has entertainment value.
In fact, looking at the ending requirements on carbuncle.jp/og5/ed.html, I'd support Death and Justice too. Death is the most entertaining "bad ending" and having Reputation + Opinion Leader's ALI = 0-49 with CHA 50+ is strategic for fastest time. An Any% World seems interesting too.
Issue I have with the others as categories is Tristan and Rauny, the sacred treasures and zodiac stones don't count if you erase them before last hit on Diablo. So Emperor/Empress are imperfect World and the rest are forms of the same Any% optimal route.
Hey! I learned the hard way that Minigunner spam can't break through the last few stages with Obelisks. Doesn't seem a huge impact to me either, especially given their slow speed.
Whole GDI campaign. I read how to install Windows 95 on DOSBox. I also read how the game speed operates on processor clock speed, making it impossible on modern processers, but we'll see. Just want to avoid The First Decade version since chance of game crash is too high on a full campaign.
I have the Windows 95 version where I can sell a Guard Tower or Advanced Guard Tower, hit S to stop it, get my credits back and keep the Minigunners. Easy to spam infinite. IGN cheat list says SAMs and Obelisks work for NOD.
Is this a "major glitch" that would need to be its own category or is this the version we should all be running? I see popular games like Donkey Kong Country where the most beneficially glitched version is the only one used.
Finally, would running on DOSBox be considered an official emulator? I have the C&C games bundle as well but Tiberian Dawn is very crash prone. Glitch also patched.
I stopped at PS2 so no. I didn't think about that but I read through instructions for Dual Shock and 3 and setting up looks easy indeed. Seem like the best idea if I stick to 1 player.
Can you recommend a good adapter to use my PS2 controller on PC? Idea is to practice on emulator where I can view memory and test for glitches.
I see 2 products on Amazon that come with 2x controller inputs for under $11. I just don't know anything about their reliability or polling lag.
LTTP having mirrored saves and save checksums is far beyond the data integrity checks I thought SNES games would have. Doesn't bode well for Ogre Battle!
In my testing, resetting at 5+ frames always results in an intact save. Resetting at 1-4 frames always results in an empty file, with one exception. Saving a file over itself and resetting at 1-4 frames keeps it intact.
Maybe, just maybe, shifting the inventory around and saving the file over itself can duplicate item slots. Really need to examine SRM at frames 1-5 in a hex editor like you're saying for proof of concept.
I think it's worth an answer. Is sort of game specific but not really.
I assume many runners on cart-based systems use flashcarts where the original is expensive. Would effectively be the same as a reproduction cart. Main difference (only difference?) from real battery-backed save cart is saving and loading operations are much faster on flash memory. Flashcart has unfair advantage where saving is required. No saving? I doubt it's detectable that you used it.
That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time but done unironically b) I have RPG Maker and was wondering just what you were going to do for memory corruption. So 2 block save creates 2 headers and is therefore harder to create a save that will load. Good to know. Thanks for investigating!
What I did without a Dexdrive to play downloaded RPG Maker games (20+ years ago) was convert them to ePSXe format with Adool's save converter. Can play on modern PS1 emulator and examine saves in native PS1 format that way.
On a related note, it takes 72 frames to save an SNES file. I tried with a file right after Warren's Castle and another halfway through with almost full army. One frame buffer before an input is processed and presumably on the end "Saved" notification, so effectively a 70 frame window. Using "" key frame advance on SNES9Xv.1.57, resetting 10-40 frames in always yielded intact save files that loaded but a "NOTHING" deleted save at 5 frames. More research to come.
No thread is truly dead here right?
@Dragondarch, your Google Doc is the real Mystic Treasure of speedrunning this game. Calculating effective boss physical and magical defense with the damage formula for each element was genius.
That said, one small mistake. Recruiting or not recruiting Debonair doesn't lose 2 Reputation points. Reputation isn't affected there. I understand the mistake. When your unit beats the boss, that unit really is treated as liberating the city and Reputation can change.
For instance, I lost 1 point vs Albeleo right before gaining the guaranteed +5 for clearing each stage. Cleared with a more holy unit, no change. Tried one more time with 100 ALI Princess and Samurai Master, +1 gain. I suppose a 100% World run could fail from this, assuming they have 60+ for a Sky Knight after dropping to 40 for Deneb.
1st Model PSP has no AV out. I bought 2nd Model on eBay but was shipped 1st. Was easy to prove auction photos didn't match. Free PSP but I don't want it..
PSP emulator (PSTV) is supposed to be the fastest way to play PS1 games. Ogre Battle wasn't officially released for it so we'd have to treat PSTV as any other emulator. If it has a speed advantage over hardware then it's banned. If SNES9x1.54 ran Ogre Battle 10% faster than real SNES, it'd be banned too.
Reminds me that Ogre Battle is on WiiVC but WiiVC was shut down. I read it's possible to use homebrew software to still install VC games but that's beyond what most people are willing to do. Sad life to "buy" a game you don't own but here we are.
The iMode phone port! I tried finding more information about it. Has some kind of link mode I think? I know Prince of Zenobia on NGPC does.
Theoretical Strats
Doesn't belong in guides, being theoretical and all, so I'll post here. Hopefully can generate some excitement / interest into route improvements and interest in Ogre Battle in general.
Item drop versus weapon drop
With limited RNG manip ability, rigging one item probably prevents a weapon drop. Defeating the last of an enemy unit has a chance to drop a consumable item. ROM map grouping shows 32 possibilities. The Unit Analysis Guide by Deathlike2 says the item drop odds are 1 in 10, apparently not influenced by LUK. An early Dream Crown comes to mind, as does a Trade Ticket (TICKET).
Finally, a use for Death Tarot to speed up defeating a non-boss unit for the drop chance.
Trade Ticket Max Value
Using the ticket summons Anywhere Jack. He sells the HP, STR, AGI, INT and LUK boosting items. Very annoyingly, using the same item more than once targets the unit leader and leader swapping takes time. Even more annoyingly, using them gives a random boost and the game doesn't let you see it until you go to their stat screen, nor does it stop you from wasting on a 255/100 stat. Hey but if we get full RNG manip, we would know the boosts.
Can buy as many items as you want before exiting the virtual shop. Prices range between STR at 15k and LUCKY CHARM at 21k a pop. Late game I found 200k more than enough to max STR or INT along with LUK on a single character. You're probably aware that Tarot damage except for Sun is based on the Opinion Leader's STR or INT. We need money strats then.
Money Strats
Sell Moon Rose (Sharom District) for 100k in Organa, Star Fragment and Rainbow Shell (Fort Allamoot) each for 66400, Gnomish Nugget (Sharom) for 40k. I believe other valuable items/weapons are Reputation dependent but non-World can drop Brunhild after it's used for 175950.
I learned from @Dragondarch's safety strat that visiting Abdella in Sharom after the clear gives 30k goth if you have less than that - and can be repeated.
A Fireseal item run (sells for over 300k) or 100% unique items run might manip a ticket alongside a Euros. Fort Allamoot trade sequence, please.
Obviously, Sunshines can change the time to noon for instant city liberation money but on a speedrun with 0 to 1 cities liberated a stage, that hardly seems viable as an income source.
Fortune Tarot
Fortune is only fringe useful in a normal playthrough and it is here as well. Makes enemy unit fall back as if you won the battle. Preserves your unit's movement path. Can use to rectify a bad spot like in Brootus' run where he's trapped between two units, but also to push a bad RNGed enemy away to perhaps clear the stage sooner than by not using it.
Witch Mode
Here is the thing. Witch does no damage but if she stops two enemies from attacking, you gain on time if you couldn't win before those two characters would have attacked. Deathlike2's guide has the Stun and chance to recovery chances. Hit rate is INT-based, about 40% if Witch and enemy have same INT and LUK, and enemy recovery rate uses their STR. Seems hitting the enemy doesn't help them wake up. Another outlet for Trade Ticket stat boosting after the Opinion Leader.
Rashidi and Diablo CAN BE STUNNED. I admit I boosted my Witch's INT to 255 with Trade Ticket first.
Witches require 50+ CHA and 0-65 ALI. Phantom Lord starts with one so perhaps she's worth including over Lans. Debonair and Muses recruit Valkyries, who can demote into Amazon then promote into Witch. Rauny and Norn have the ALI to turn into Witches immediately. Deneb makes a great Witch Kappa.
Persuasion Spell [CHARM]
Obtainable as a drop from a defeated enemy unit and for a cool 50k from Musplem, Organa, City of Malano and Dragon's Haven, though obviously not worth the time in the latter stage.
The Spell removes all non-leader characters from an enemy unit and adds them to your pool of characters. Apparently can miss and uses Opinion Leader's CHA. Used presumably in casual playthroughs for Zombie Dragons, Dragon Tamers and evil units in Galf's stage, I never see it in a speedrun despite coming into Temple Shalina with well over 50k goth.
Is the issue that units you recruit or face in battle have about 1 less in each stat per level up than from you raising them yourself. Necessary to prevent abusing recruiting at towns with a less than full unit. However, I think the best use is for Any% to recruit high sky Wyrm/Wyvern, which has better stats and has faster attack animation than Griffon, in Diaspola, Valley of Kastro and Ruined City. Other chances late game. More fringe use to recruit Sylphs from Rhyan Sea and Fogel and Galf's stages.
Sylph (Sylyph?) Abuse
Fairies and Pixies are the worst units in the game and recruited units have about 1 less stat point per level than having raised them yourself. That said, Sylphs have sky high AGI to go first in battle with a hit all white magic attack. Tristan Ianuki then retreat abuse is a thing but using three back row Slyphs have the same potential.
Thing is, the Fae and Imp lines, among other non-humans, lack a CHA requirement to level up. This means a level a level 22 Princess or Seraphim can recruit infinite level 20 Sylphs. Note that one Dream Crown is given at city closest to Temple Shalina and another after clearing Musplem at Chilfa. Again, Persuasion Spell potential at Rhyan Sea and Fogel and Galf's stages.
Promotion
You already have to go back to City of Malano for the Zodiac Stone. Revisit Mon Bizoh and say "Yes" for a Promotion that grants a free level up! Obvious target is the Opinion Leader to increase Tarot card damage and boost odds of surviving Quake. Other choices are Tristan to increase Ianuki damage or Yushis, who at level 22 can recruit infinite Slyphs. Princess Aisha/Norn can too.
Reputation Dumping
In the speedrunning scene, Borgnine is the most famous man in the world. Infinite Reputation drops for Deneb and Galf and an Undead Staff for Saradin for good measure. An any% World would probably grab the Staff from Omicron's base.
I wish I had played through to confirm this, but apparently you can deny Rauny and Yushis joining the rebelling repeatedly to lower Repuation exactly like Borgnine. I intent to do a 100% playthrough looking for all Reputation manip chances.
Sirius in Werewolf Form
The tool-assisted Any% World run is worth watching. Called "tas オウガバトル" on YouTube. Near-perfect Joker pulls made me angry but if you want to greatly increase entertainment value and save a small amount of time (by using the best Tarots in the game) Fool + Judgement + Holy Lord's Banish kills Sirius in Werewolf form.
Glitches
As theoretical as it gets, @Krayzar did the first testing on corrupting memory while resetting during a save. Used in Chrono Trigger on a 1 frame window to duplicate items and our saves take longer.
The Japanese TAS from above does something screwy with input on choose a Tarot from Warren's deck. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what this does but perhaps the video text explains the trick. I presume uses an "illegal button input combination" (left+right or up+down on D pad at same time). Can also see a ridiculous glitch in the Diablo fight that transforms back into the Ares boss fight to fast kill.
On PSX, I used a Sunshine before Gares as is standard strategy. Diablo made the globe turn to midnight but the stage still appeared as noon. [url=https://imgur.com/sUNjBju]I then used another Sunshine.[/ur] Damage was still at midnight time but perhaps there is a way with Sunshine and/or Moonbeam and pulling Sun/Moon to force the game out of the midnight lock and crush Diablo.
I want to split up the leaderboard if one version has significant glitch advantage but not because one platform runs faster or is more expensive. That isn't how it works for any other SNES game is it? But then, SNES is the fastest platform for all other SNES games.
I admit PSX has issues when it's the optimal platform: a ) There is no practical way to burn the ISO on a CD and play on real hardware. SNES flash carts are affordable. [Accessibility] b ) PS1 lag is too much to be competitive, inaccurate lag emulation aside, and PS2 emulators don't play PS1 games. PSTV official emulator is fast but runs games off hard drive so is usually banned. [Accessibility] c ) ISOs for X Y Z games are not easily available online. SNES + SFC has every ROM easily available in a single download. [Accessibility] d ) @Krayzar brings up the PS2 model hell. I have to buy a 3rd PS2 because I didn't realize Time Crisis 2 link mode only works on the early Fat models!! [Accessibility]
Cost here is not an issue. English PSX version is half the price of SNES version. Japanese SNES (SFC), PSX and Saturn versions are all cheaper and affordable. I assume most runners of expensive SNES games play off a flash cart. Has advantage of faster save and load times but not useful here.
If you two want to split up by platform because of accessibility and state in the game rules this is the main reason, I'll sign on.
I too prepped for a cakewalk FIRESEAL WR on PS2 Slim with Fast Disc Speed b). What it seems is: a ) the speed of units and day progression are both accelerated from SNES, but at different rates b ) we know the AI makes RNG calls to determine unit movement behavior --with the increased speed, these calls happen at different times from before ----therefore our routing has to change
I timed Japanese SNES New Game to World Map to be ~1:15 versus ~1:30 in English SNES, so Japanese PSX should be fastest of all. You look at popular A Link to the Past, Super Mario RPG, Megaman X--competitive runners run in Japanese. BRB buying Game Shark to play imports.
That's awesome you looked at save hacking. I would also suspect Saturn to have the most bug potential. Thanks for video evidence. Seems like a good idea to create a saved game memory map. I guess that is for the best if we [currently] don't have a way to corrupt memory. But check this out from SNES Chrono Trigger:
Mechanics: It takes 2 frames to save the game in Chrono Trigger. some values between 7E2400 and 7E264F are overwritten in SRAM in order in the first frame; the rest of them and values in addresses after 7E264F are overwritten in order in the second frame. That means you can get a half-saved save file if you reset the game in the first frame of saving. Off course, this is an invalid procedure for the game, so the target data is deleted. In Chrono Trigger, however, you can load the corrupted data by pressing A and up/down key at the same time in the load screen.
2 frames! The up/down key is an illegal button combination in every competitive SNES game, with the notable exception of Super Mario Kart where it is embraced and people sand down the pivot on their controller. I like the YouTube video by ばんbann where he makes at least 30 attempts for 1 success. Would be very easy to frame advance on SNES and see our window.
Yes, save & load right before boss or buried treasure to reset the RNG seed. Should be easy to reset during a save to corrupt memory considering how much slower saves are. I'd probably only try on an emulator in case it's possible to ruin a memory card.
I have the Saturn version too! I really like the improved character icons and CHA and ALI change notifications. I suspect Saturn is the slowest due to the voice acting scenes but should still be tested. Plays fine on emulators.
What I want to see is a run for Saturn 100% that includes the extra 4 campaign stages and one for Sajemu Island. For those that don't know, Sajemu a single stage campaign like Fireseal that gives Justice ending. Name the lord サージェム (Sa-jemu in Katakana).
PS2 Slim with Fast Disc Speed on left vs SNES on right. Playing off real game disc and cart. Recordings are my own. Sorry I'm not ambidextrous and recorded on 30 fps phone.
PSX looks much faster due to: a ) The X button (A on SNES) loading a whole block of text versus SNES having to scroll line by line. b ) Movement speed 3 on PSX is ludicrous. c ) ▢ button allows queuing up to 8 movements in a row on a single unit.
~10 second loss on PSX loading per stage not enough for SNES to catch up.
New Game Tarot Cards Castle of Warren
