Thanks @Krayzar, so if we knew all the sources of RNG then each stage has the potential to use a save + reset strat to start with a manipulatable seed.

I'm quite certain drops are global: a) I've made a Lich as early as Slums of Zenobia b) The Japanese TAS on YouTube pulls a Notos at Warren's Castle and Sharom: c) This ROM map suggests drops are global: https://finnshore.webs.com/rom-map.txt

Needless to say, space was tight on SNES games, with 4 MB being on the high end. The most size efficient way to generate random equipment and items while excluding key story ones is to place the obtainable ones in the same block of memory. Generate "random" number from 0 to (possible drops -1) then add to the starting address. That's the drop.

Fair to say these equips are impossible to get as buried treasure: 1=Sonic Blade - STR+13 2=Durandal - STR+12 3=Bizen Sword - STR+11 4=Zepyulos - STR+15,INT+3 5=Fafhniel - STR+20,INT+4 6=Zanzibar - STR+18 7=Brunhild - STR+20

I read on the hardtype mod site that Nue's Shield at 0x64 cannot be found as a treasure on SNES due to a bug, leaving 92 possibilities. Also suggests zombero knows how the algorithm works.

Ginger Cake at 0x65, the first item, certainly would be excluded, as would the Mystic Treasures and Zodiac Stones at the end. I assume Glass Pumpkin too. Excluding story items leaves the items obtainable from defeating a unit between 0x97 Stone of Dragos and 0xB6 Crystal Ball, inclusive, for 32 possibilities. So Trade Ticket at 1 in 32 is easier to manipulate than the Notos. Or harder if defeated unit drop chance is 1 in 10?

Thanks Dragondarch for the valuable info! I have a decent understanding of assembly language but I never could figure out an SNES debugger enough to examine the code frame by frame. Do you know if saving then loading the game file resets the seed or do we have to reset the console?

So to manipulate RNG for an item from a defeated enemy unit, my choices would be a Trade Ticket or Royal Crown. I've pulled a Trade Ticket, an Undead Staff and Undead Ring this way in a normal playthrough, so I doubt the Crown is excluded.

Also note that viewing the RAM while speedrunning is illegal. Got to practice when not going for a real record.

I'm not the expert Dragondarch but I think I got this. If you look at the RAM while playing the game on an emulator, you'll see a number that very quickly loops from 0 to 255 and back again.

This is the seed and the main source of RNG in the game. Dragondarch's Any% guide describes how to select the Opinion Leader's sex at the exact right time to get seed 75. In his document linked in Getting Started thread (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K4RitjQ3d6rg72qWHLvKdayedIwulyzyyfQxGkMdPPk/edit#gid=826367894) you will see on the Card 2 List (No Dismiss) tab a very impressive Warren Tarot card spread for all 256 possible seeds. (0 is a valid seed.)

The seed also determines what you pull from buried treasures, equipment from liberating temples, how fights go, what Tarot you pull from liberation...many things. Like if the hit rate is 50% for a low AGI character, maybe seed 0 to 127 would be a miss and 128 to 255 a hit. My guess for Tarot pull is the game does seed%21 and the remainder from 0 to 21 determines the card.

Fortunately, the seed stops cycling when you are selecting where to move a unit with the flag. So what matters here is selecting the same exact ending location so the unit stops moving on the same seed each time. Since the seed is cycling while deploying units, you have to be very fast or pause for a very specific amount of time to preserve the luck manipulation track that you are on. It's probably impossible for a human to manipulate more than the first 3 treasure/item drops due to the cycling in between stages on the world map. You see that Dragondarch makes no attempt at manipulating the seed after Warren's Castle and this is why.

Thanks for a moderator response. Who made these rules? Why can't they be improved, depending on one's perspective? Using the rules as defense of the rules is circular logic.

I think the dexterity test of entering FIRESEAL should be counted as part of the time. Then all Ogre Battle runs would start at the same point of selecting New Game. I've argued this in another thread. I don't know how to define community consensus when it's 2-4 people though.

If we want to push the rules as they are then GreenMixTape's Best Ending run should be removed for skipping Lyon. I don't think that's fair given the minimal time and 5000 goth needed. I'd rather penalize the run 1 minute and leave it be.

Thanks for making the changes. I like that 100PT isn't needed.

Perhaps "Best Ending" should be renamed to "100%" for requiring every stage and Ashe, Lyon and Deneb who don't affect the ending. Naturally, 100% would encompass the World ending by going over and beyond its requirements.

Best Ending itself is ambiguous. An any% World only needs Tristan and Rauny recruited since the other characters just trigger additional ending dialogue.

Was my mistake for skipping through the videos and missing the important details. Is nice to have start and end timing be consistent across all categories. I'd say it makes sense to change Dragons Haven start timing. Only 7 approved runs. I can retime them myself. Youtube only slows to 1/4 the play speed but is enough if I can't get a hold of any runners for the video files.

Dragondarch is active on Twitch so I'm fortunate there. He posted about not wanting to submit his faster 100% Youtube time because it wasn't sub-2 hours. Perhaps I can have him reconsider.

I understand the lack of fairness when the runner, including your Dragons Havens submission, wasn't trying to optimize the name entry originally. I think the best option is to keep timing after name entry as a Misc category and make a New Game timing category as a main one. Still compare new runs with Misc and add them in. Slight benefit for Japanese-version players since their "Fireseal" is 8 characters (ファイアクレスト) and requires scrolling past Hiragana.

No one person owns a community and if the active size of 2-4 wants consistent timing rules and better 100% rules that follow precedent, I think it's hard to argue otherwise.

2 years later but I'm new here. Right, rules posted time from after entering the name to inflicting final hit. To be precise, "final hit" has and should continue to be when boss starts to disintegrate. I share Dragondarch's issue with timing. Should start on New Game button press.

Additionally, Albeleo after defeat has 3 text boxes to press through and a dexterous/lucky player could be a few frames faster than another. I'd like all categories to have consistent timing. Start on New Game button press and end on "Congratulations" being displayed to account for the Albeleo text. Not a big deal if argument to keep final hit remains. More important to track time for entering "FIRESEAL" as it is a bigger dexterity test.

@Krayzar Thanks for responding! I went back and watched all the runs when a Clearing Slums of Zenobia b Getting Key of Destiny c Getting Garnet:

-Dragondarch recruits Lyon around 1h 33m after getting the Garnet -Brootus recruits Lyon around 58 min on Key of Destiny trip -alraedris recruits Lyon around 1 hour on Key of Destiny trip -GreenMixTape does not recruit Lyon

Actually, GreenMixeTape run has extremely annoying screen shaking. Had over 100k goth when 7 League Booting to Lyon's city and still didn't recruit. Would have been faster to 'boot' to Debonair's castle as it's closer to the Key. No need to adjust time because recruiting Lyon would have added no delay and the 5k could be paid without impacting the route.

Easy then to require that Deneb, Ashe and Lyon be recruited on a 100% World run. No existing run is invalidated and follows precedent. Of course, Deneb is the only skill test and adds much entertainment. Ashe has boss dialogue with Debonair and ending dialogue on Sun/Moon. Hard to justify excluding him, even if skipping Lyon is allowed. I also think 100 Reputation / Chaos Frame ("100 PT" in rules) should not be required but will probably always be earned anyway.

Rules Edit: Let's go with Dragondarch's posted rules, with Lyon counting. Also a 2007 SDA post where he argues for recruiting Lyon and Deneb.

Timing I would prefer time stop be when "Congratulations" is displayed versus inflicting final blow. Minor point but it makes some difference in Dragons Haven because Albeleo has 3 post-fight text boxes to tap through.

Finally, something to be said that Dragondarch's 2h 18h 8s run listed on the Leaderboard was removed, probably by his own design, and his 100% 1st Place of 2h 1m 56s isn't listed.

Hello, I created an account to contribute. The historic problem with this game is that essentially every mechanic and ending requirement has been shrouded in darkness. There is a Japanese website called carbuncle that spells out the requirements. @Krayzar World ONLY needs:

• 3 Mystic Treasures, 12 Zodiac Stones, Tristan, Rauny
• Reputation/Chaos Frame + Opinion Leader's ALI >= 110, since 15 points are guaranteed by the first line

100% best ending (World) requirements can be debated. Complete all stages, of course. Would be nice to have all boss-hero and Gawain dialogue but can understand leaving out. What about Ashe, Deneb and Lyon?

Ashe only appears in Sun/Moon endings while Deneb and Lyon never affect the ending. Brootus' 2:10:24 and Dragonarch's 2:01:56 Youtube runs (2:18:08 Leaderboard run no longer exists) recruit Ashe and Deneb but skip Lyon, despite him only taking a few additional seconds. Costs 20k goth during stage and only 5k goth after. I think a 100% run has to recruit all three for max entertainment OR skip all three, if aiming for fastest time to trigger all World ending dialogue.

Also, I erased all recruitable heroes and sold the Mystic Treasures and Zodiac Stones on my PS1 file to degrade World into Sun. Confirmed Lans takes Ashe's place in ending if not in army.

Each tarot could have its Any% category but only Devil and Death have interesting gameplay and endings that aren't imperfect Worlds. I'd like to see a Fireseal item, Glass Pumpkin, Saga, Durandal, Sonic Blade, say, obtain all unique items run. Requires manipulating an item drop for Euros. Would also like a "max evil" run that trades the Zodiac Stones for 99 Dream Crowns on Musplem.

@Sforzand0 As for playing on an SNES Classic, I only see that category for games that come bundled. Obviously requires running a hack on the device then installing the ROM. Seems fine as regular SNES EMU entry.

Worth noting the Sega Saturn Japanese only version. Has 5 additional stages, including one that is a one-shot campaign like Dragons Haven with a new ending – Justice. Rest of stages available in a single playthrough by recruiting Deneb, Slust, Fenril, obtaining the 12 Zodiac Stones and 600k goth.