BrazilPerhaps it's some exception with Thorns not proccing their natural 'charged bolt on hit'? Maybe Thorns doesn't proc but 'attacked takes X damage' procs them?
Players can avoid Diablo's bone prison by casting the TP far from him, so I'd say, if the player is stuck in a bone prison, he should leave the game, so he's not forced to attack. This kind of 'Chaos Sanctuary reset' would cost almost the same time as not performing the bestow mechanics properly (like if de Seis is bestowed by some other mage or himself and you can't kill him by simply proccing novas).
The accidental hits were discussed before, even in your initial rules (or guidelines), you suggested that the player should leave the game if that happened. I think these hits can be forgiven, as long as the player leaves the game without killing the enemy.
Just need to add that "Ladder-only runewords are NOT allowed," right?
Suggested rules:
- You cannot take an action that will deal damage, make an enemy attack you [Taunt] or make enemies attack each other [Confuse/Attract].
- Reflected damage/on taking a hit procs are allowed. If an enemy takes damage, it was because you were attacked and damage was reflected or a "chance on being hit/struck" proc triggered.
- Telekinesis is allowed, but damaging an enemy invalidates the run.
- Offensive skills used for mobility [Charge/Leap Attack] are allowed, but damaging an enemy invalidates the run.
- Crowd Controls skills are allowed, except if they make an enemy attack you or attack each other. Bone Wall makes enemies attack the wall [not you], so it's allowed.
- If an enemy is attacked with normal attack due to the weapon switch glitch, the runner must leave the game and then continue the run. If the enemy dies in the same game, the run is invalidated.
- Breaking any of these rules during the run should result in the run being invalidated for the category.
- /players X is allowed
- Must NOT use a pre-generated map
- This is a 'Real Time Attack' run: The usage of "Safe and Exit" is allowed
- Timer starts on character creation and ends when Baal dies
I give up too, just kill him with procs and good luck.
Thanks for adding the category.
So... let's just... Pacifism = "Don't attack, therefore don't do damage. Don't make enemies attack you. Don't make enemies attack each other."
And then, just call "Pacifism" category. No % necessary... like GTA:SA, "All missions" is just "All missions", and not "All missions%". It's not a necessary, but it's not a problem either.
About the unintentional attack with the weapon switch glitch, just make the player leave the game and continue the run. Unintentionally attacking with Charge or Leap Attack should invalidate the run, because the player knows it could easily happen.
About de Seis... the trick to kill him can really be performed by any class, it's just slow and annoying. I'd say you're indirectly attacking him by making Infector hit you and proc novas. "Hey, de Seis! I lured Infector to be healed, so he could attack me (even though I'm not forcing him to). The 'reflected' damage will eventually kill you, but I'm really trying to talk you out of this." Yeah, pacific... sure.
I still suggest to allow attacking him (only normal attack, whatever weapon you're using [for equality for all classes, player can make runewords or attach runes/gems], no hero abilities allowed [venom, enchant, etc]). If the runner still don't want to attack him, just make a variable filter on leaderboards.
At this point I'm ok with both Reflect% and Pacifist%, but still prefer Reflect%.
The idea of a variable filtering if the runner attacked de Seis is great. That way we wouldn't have two categories that are very similar. I think runs that de Seis is attacked will be several minutes faster, though (this area, specifically). Also, attacking de Seis isn't very pacific, so one more point to "Reflect%".
About Bone Wall, it doesn't deal damage, so is up to the player use it or not. The initial argument was forbid it because it attracts enemies to attack it, but as the rule became a simple "don't do damage," then it's allowed. As the first rule would be "don't do damage, or make an enemy attack you or attack themselves," any skill should be allowed, but if the runner damage something, then it's over.
Blacklisting skills should be just a way to make validation easier. If a mod or a viewer/runner see a "blacklisted" skill be equipped in a run, then that alone is suspicious, but not really forbidden (like Charge or Leap Attack, which the player can use to move faster but must be aware of the risk of damaging something).
@LaV So, I think we can narrow down the rules to a simple list:
- Don't take any action that would damage something.
- Crowd Control abilities are allowed, as long as they don't do damage or force enemies to attack you (Taunt) or attack themselves (Confuse/Attract).
- If an enemy is attacked, the player needs to leave the game. If an enemy dies by an active attack, the run is over.
@DrCliche "If I'm wearing a helmet and you decide to charge at me, punch my head, and as a result break your hand, perhaps you should reconsider your life choices." That's a good way to explain how it's still pacifist and not indirectly offensive. =]
@everyone About Lord de Seis, it's really possible to kill him without attack (using nova procs and the Bestow, as linked earlier in this thread), but it's just hard. To maintain the idea of pacifist, he must not be attacked. If anyone ever decide to make him an exception and attack, it should be another category. :p
I think Reflect% reflects (Kappa) much better the idea of the category. It's just naive to call pacifist a build where you equip a bunch of damage return stuff that will inevitably damage and kill your enemies.
The 'Spontaneous' word should just be removed. Or this rule could be changed to "Enemies can only be damaged by taking reflected damage from your itens and skills." This even reinforces the idea of 'Reflect%'.
"Reflect%" is a solid concept, imo.
I'd say these on hit stuff should be allowed. They would save some minutes, but compared to the whole run, it isn't that much. The player should be aware that these AoE skills triggered on hit could damage other mobs, so De Seis must be completely alone in this case.
Also, changing the weapon (with on-hit stuff) to something 'weaker' (normal weapons) isn't very merciful, as the enemy would have a sloooow death. xD
By stab I mean the normal attack, without any skill modification (like auras, venom, enchant, etc). You can use whatever weapon you have equipped at the moment.
"Bone wall is not only a crowd controll skill. it also draws the attention of monsters that are pretty far away and causes them to attack the bone wall." I see. So, no Bone Wall either.
"So no curses?" I'd say no curses. If you damage, control, confuse, weaken, etc, a monster, you are physically or mentally manipulating them to your benefits.
"Killing Seis? A pacifist committing murder all of a sudden? Nice change of pace..." I know, but, it's an unavoidable situation. Let's be honest, every time we equip something that will damage whoever tries to damage you, isn't really that pacific. You know that their nature is attack you, and you know that when they attack you, they will take damage and eventually die. And then, if you are lucky to do all Infector+Bestow+NovaProc thing, you are still conscious that you'll kill De Seis by the actions of Infector. I'd say that stab De Seis yourself is just as moral as manipulating Infector to kill him.
I think the basic rule is, if the skill actively (the player actually cast the skill) deals damage or reduces the mob HP (like Static), it cannot be used. Passive damage (which is triggered by the mobs actions) is allowed (Thorns, Sorc's ice armors, "attacker takes damage" property, Frost Nova, Nova and Charged Bolt procs). Damage Shrines are NOT allowed as well, once the player knows that activating that will damage the mobs nearby. Curses that taunts or curses enemies are NOT allowed. Crowd Control skills should be allowed (like Bone Wall and Bone Prison), because the player casts it on the world and doesn't directly affect the mob.
Charge and Leap Attack are offensive skills, not mobility skills, so they shouldn't be used in a pacifist run. Leap (just leap, not Leap Attack) is a mobility skill, when you used it, is to get past a mob, and not to engage. When a mob attacks you, it's because you are in it's attack range, doesn't matter if you are running around or jumping over him. Think Leap as a very simple Teleport.
The only mob exception should be Lord de Seis, which is a total run killer. Maybe the players can roleplay and say 'He's too dangerous to be kept alive!' and just stab him to the death. Not even kidding here.
I'm hyped to run more, but there need to be a consensus about Lord de Seis and how to kill him.
I tried the run today and it's very fun, except that I tried Paladin and got stuck in Lord de Seis. Perhaps some rule exception could be make about him, allowing us to slap him to the death, as he totally kills any progress attempt (except for a very hard mechanic involving Infector, Bestow and nova procs: , video by DrCliche ).
About the leaderboards, I concur it adds motivation and healthy competitiveness, even if there only a few players willing to run. Just add a Misc category, with class and softcore/hardcore filters, and let runners/viewers watch and report possible rules infringements.
Yeah, but what I'm asking is an alternative...
Hello!
I'd like to speedrun LL (and Mario 1) but the rules say it needs to be streamed for the good times. My internet is too weak and I can't stream (for now). I'd like to know if there's some sort of setup that could be allowed to record offline, like a cam on controller or something?
Thanks!
Alan.
Just a quick example, guys. When HC and SC runs were separated, we saw an incredible grow on D2 speedrun community. Of course there were other factors, like D2 at GDQ, more streamers, etc, but the leaderboards are a big factor. Just check twitch daily, there are plenty of runners doing solely HC (like Fluffo, Ryu, TheXec, etc etc).
Was it a coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The point is, changes are welcome when many people ask for them, and more ¤options¤ are always welcome. Check Megaman games, for example. It has some very popular categories, and some with just 2 or 3 completed runs. If something new (like a new category, or filters on leaderboards) doesn't affect negatively the community, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed, even if only a few people want it.
I agree with Slimo that Hell runs are tiresome and demand too much time, that's why I don't run them. If there was a way to segment or at least pause (let's say, the runner can pause but can't stop recording, and when pausing the d2 client cannot be closed, that would make validation easier and way harder to cheat), I'd surely run it. This way, a new category wouldn't be necessary and probably more runners would like to run too.
I'd totally support a Nightmare category and surely would run it.
What you said is correct, you can split anyway you want. I think most people split at bosses because they saw other people doing it, because killing an act boss actual feel like a step, or just because bosses are cool milestones.
I think spliting on bosses is good because you can travel several times to other acts, like when you are at act3 and go to act2 to buy misc potions with the annoying guy beside Fara ("whatahell you want?"), ou to hire the aura mercenaries. Also the last split is actually a boss (Baal), and not the act.
