This post is to serve as a place to discuss further allowance of disc tray manipulation in Pac-Man World speedruns.

For anybody who is unaware, there is an exploit in Pac-Man World that can be achieved by opening the disc tray on the console to prevent areas of the game from loading until the player has bypassed particular obstacles. This is most notably used in Down The Tubes in all categories in order to skip the bell door and in the overworld to perform gate skip in Any%. Due to some recent discoveries regarding both of these skips, several people (myself included) would like to have a discussion surrounding this trick and whether or not it should still be allowed.

When disc eject was first found, the community surrounding this game was quite small, and all of the platforms they were performing runs on (PS1, PS2, and Emu) could all use disc eject, so since everybody was on equal footing, the trick was allowed from the start. However, as the community has grown and the number of platforms people run the game on has increased, this is no longer true. Players on the PSN download version and on PSTV are unable to perform this trick, and thus are at a disadvantage under the current ruleset. Disallowing disc eject would put all platforms on equal footing in terms of the strat pool that players can pull from. Although certain platforms would become faster than others due to load time differences, I think that it is crucial that any strat that one player is able to do can be done by any other player.

I want to make it clear that disc eject is not a glitch, nor does it cause an effect that cannot be achieved in-game. It takes advantage of an in-game mechanic by abusing something outside of the game itself, which is why it is an interesting case of hardware manipulation, unlike other games, where opening the disc tray, tilting the cartridge, etc. causes glitches that are not normally in the game or cannot normally be done to occur.

If disc eject ends up being banned as a result of the discussion on this post, then the rules will be updated promptly and all runs submitted after the change that use disc eject will be rejected. Any runs currently on the boards would remain since they complied with the submission rules at the time they were completed and verified.

Another option that people may discuss is making separate categories or adding a variable to distinguish between runs that use disc eject and those that do not if it is decided that the trick should still be allowed. I would argue that disc eject is not game-breaking enough to warrant this distinction since unlike level skip, wall skip, etc., the fundamental nature of the run is not changed if disc eject is used or not. Again though, I'm not going to make decisions for everyone, so I want to hear people's thoughts.

I want to know what everyone thinks about this trick. Please keep discussions and arguments both relevant and civil. I'll leave this post up for a week or two so people have time to formulate their thoughts and opinions and then proceed from there based on what people say on this post. Thank you!

-Joe

Well spoken post, dude From an outsider's perspective, I see no reason why it should be allowed if it requires physically manipulating consoles. Isn't cartridge tilting banned on most 64 games? Also, since there are methods of doing the skips without it, it's not even required to go fast.

I feel that whether the new tricks are faster or not, the disc eject tricks are in fact much easier, and are still reliable and consistent, I think that the every platform should be on equal footing thing, isn't a good mindset, as it limits diversity, and realization with other platforms. However, it is in fact Hardware manipulation, so I can't really say it isn't completely okay for disc eject to be allowed. Then again, the people who first ran this game shouldn't have just let this slide, and should've thought of the consequences down the line. And for that reason, I feel that disc eject SHOULD stay because it keeps the strat pool bigger, and can maybe lead to futher findings in the future. Maybe it was wrong for it to be here in the first place, but simply taking away what we already have and that everyone uses I feel it's wrong. If Disc Eject is not faster than the non Disc Eject strats then what's the issue? It still maintains an even playing ground. It's not like Disc Eject saves an astounding amount of time over PSN or PSTV, so therefore, removing it serves almost no point other than making you feel less bad for doing it? But that in itself serves no good argument against Disc Eject.

But here's the thing. You're doing things OUTSIDE of the game to make the run itself faster. Isn't that kind of, you know, against the point of speedrunning a game?

Personally, I believe that the disc eject strat should be allowed up until a certain threshold in any% and all all levels. When your time is competitive and relevant, however, I think that it would be best for there to be a cutoff where you are required to do the more difficult clipping tricks for gate and dtt. An alternate solution could be to add a "Disc Eject?" Option while submitting a run, so people can see if you exploited a certain thing in the game or not. Removing disc eject will allow people who have pstv to have an advantage over most of the other people who could potentially run the game, such as ps, ps2 and emu. The most common and accessible platform for most people is a ps2, which would put the majority at a disadvantage if disc eject were to become a banned exploit. More people would become affected by ps2 not being able to disc eject compared to pstv people NOT being able to disc eject. The potential upcoming runners could use the newly found clips for gate and dtt if they were to run on it. Their loads would balance out with ps2 being able to use disc eject.

I'd just like to say I brought up this subject like a year ago and was told "it wont be banned, this isn't up for discussion" :^)

Anyway, I think you should make Disc Eject a sub category for each category, that way current runs and strats can be maintained, and others can also be used as well.

I think I've stated my point of view about the subject enough times before that this won't surprise anyone: I would feel very unconfortable running this game if DE was allowed (even if I didn't use it myself) because it remains hardware manipulation on top of everything. I do not pretend that everyone is like me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the simple fact of allowing DE were to keep some people away from running the game, while there are very useable clips that can be used to work around it.

As far as what @lozplyr89 said, don't you think removing it now, when it is actually possible to match the current runs, would be the perfect time to remove it? If we wait and, as you mentionned it yourself, new disc eject uses are found in the future, then the even playing ground could be broken and it could become impossible for downloadable versions runners to keep up with disc users. If that happens, I fear the subject would be brought up again and additional categories might be created in order to accomodate both parties (which we are trying to avoid here).

Anyway, if we are to keep DE (again, I am against this option), I think there ¤should¤ be a distinction between DE and No DE runs should we need to split the boards in the future (worst case scenario)

@Ringo's suggestion about allowing DE up to a certain threshold feels overcomplicated to me. As far as platform loading speeds go, yes, it is true that PSTV saves a considerable amount of time from loads (I don't know the exact number). I don't think allowing disc eject would be a solution to that, partially for the points I mentionned above, and also because No DE has potential to be just the same speed / faster anyway.

@Cyberdemon531 I think Sub-categories are going a little too far. The runs would be too similar (now that a fast No DE Gate Skip was found at least) to justify such a split. Using variables (are filters a thing yet?) would potentially give the same filtering without the burden of twice the categories.

how about we make a no disc eject sub category for every category and call it a day

@Nitrofski, I understand where you're coming from, but I just feel that killing something for a specific platform isn't the greatest way to handle it, I think that putting a variable in the run submissions for future and current runs on the board that use it, would be a good way to handle the situation, and I feel that DE should be banned with future mini things, like bingo perhaps. But not in serious runs, only for the fact that it's here, the run's aren't different almost at all, from Disc Eject to No Disc Eject, so what's the harm in keeping it? Nobody has seriously tried to stop it for some reason. And I'm assuming I'm not the only one that has this mindset. In my opinion, leveling the strat pool to accommodate all platforms won't really fix the "advantage" problem. I run on PS3, meaning I'm currently mostly at a disadvantage due to load times, and the only way to fix THAT issue would be to start subtracting loads from runs, which is another hurdle to hop over as far as run submission, and community decision making goes that I don't feel is necessary. Again, I wouldn't mind if this was never here in the first place, but considering how LONG this has been around why all the sudden are we going to turn around and say that we're gonna try changing something that's been fine for so long. And people not wanting to run the game? Some people like hardware manipulation, some don't. And tbh, with hardware manipulation, I'm in a toss up position but that to me doesn't justify not running the game, as you are not OBLIGATED to do it nor do you NEED to do it to stay competitive.

Ok, so let me just get something out that I feel is very important to this discussion: How much time disc eject saves is irrelevant, disc eject is typically seen as essentially cheating and the fact that it doesn't save time doesn't make it less of cheating.

The next thing I want to talk about is the cutoff time, I really dislike cutoff times it feels to me like you're saying it's not fair for top level runners if someone using disc eject beats them, but lower runners that don't use disc eject have to deal with it.

And now I want to counter something Loz said with keeping it allowed since it was allowed in the beginning, for W2 video wasn't required in the beginning and then there was discussion on whether video should then be required and you were in favor of it, how is this any different?

And finally I just want to say what I'm for in this discussion. As of right now I'm leaning towards the variable (Btw @Nitrofski the filter is a thing) people who dislike disc eject don't have to see runs with it, people who do like it can still use it and people who don't care can see just see all of the runs without having to look into subcategories.

honestly i think it should be allowed, i run ratchet and clank on ps2 at a severe disadvantage but im not going to say the top runners cant do a ps3 exclusive trick because i cant. It's kind of the same argument, if you want to be a pro player at the game just get the right equipment. I know it isnt feasible for everyone who wants to run to get a physical copy of the game but i wouldn't ban something because of that.

It's my personal opinion that disc eject should be banned, but obviously the old runs using it should be grandfathered. Like Rallis said, disc eject is essentially cheating in terms of speed running, and it is unquestionably hardware manipulation. Just because disc eject strats are easier, it doesn't mean that they should be allowed in runs. I don't see any reason to split the game up, because the old runs would still be grandfathered on the boards, and anyone could just pick up the new strats, not everyone can use disc eject. The whole argument about "it's been here for so long, so it's valid" doesn't really add up, because I've heard many opinions against disc eject in the past, and I've always been against it personally, so obviously it wasn't universally accepted. Also, even if this kinda irrelevant, if Joe has to say, "So here's a skip that most communities wouldn't accept but it's allowed for some reason in this one" in his AGDQ run, then that might be a sign that something's wrong with allowing it. :)

Also, before anyone attempts to counter me, Nitrof, or another Spyro runner, disc eject is only allowed in Spyro 3 to solve a game crash using FDS, if you even get a crash in the first place. It is not used as a skip of any sorts, it is just used to fix a game crash.

@lozplyr89 I was never asking to kill it for PSTV. Had I been on PS2, my opinion would have been exactly the same on the subject. Thing is, I have kind of always been an extremist for these kind of things. It feels dirty and keeps me away from the game altogether. I would have been searching for a No DE Gate Skip and had it not been improved just recently, I would have most definitely used my slower version in my own runs. All of that, though, doesn't justify anything other than saying "I don't like it", which I understand not all people agree on. And I also understand if only a minority of people would kept away from the game like I am currently.

@Newantox I've already explained my point to you but here it is again for documenting this thread. A game is designed to be done in multiple sittings with the game being on and off during that time, so using the Reset button is, as far as it goes, an intended way to "use" the console. Opening the disc tray and preventing it from spinning, on the other hand (and that all the while still playing it) doesn't seem like an intended way to use the console to me. Of course, actually switching the disc is intended for some games which in a way counters this argument, but one of them definitely is a more gray area than the other (DE, that is)

I want to repeat here that my argument is not toward giving PSTV a chance at all the tricks, but merely toward making the game more standard and prevent future complications for the arising of potential new DE tricks. Giving PSTV access to all allowed tricks would only be a side effect. Also, considering we mentioned the fact that both DE and No-DE could be about the same speed, this side effect apparently brings close to no benefit that PSTV didn't already have (load times, access to JP)

First off, i would like to remind everyone here that we should try to keep emotions out of this. That being said, I'm for keeping DE in.. I go much more in depth in my pastebin ( http://pastebin.com/i1CB7qav ), but essentially Disc Ejecting doesn't save much, if any time, so in theory, if someone wants a faster time, they would not do it. Plus, the argument that not every version can do it I find ridiculous, as PSTV has much faster loads than other versions, yet we don't time out loads (Im not suggesting we do either, just stating it for the sake of the argument.) As for making it a separate category/variable, i find that ridiculous, as the time difference would be miniscule and the route wouldn't change whatsoever.

First I want to say some things about the technical things of this matter. Then I will elaborate my opinion itself.

One thing is clear: either way some people is going to be at disadvantage over other, one way or another. If DE is NOT banned, the true is that PSN and PSTV players could have issues about doing any DE strat found later on. But, if DE IS banned, then PSTV will have a clear advantage just because of load times. So, we can't decide this talking about platforms or hardware only, we have to do it talking about achievable time. For that we have to ask ourselves the next question:

Is a run with DE on a PS2 slower, equal, or faster than a run w/o DE on a PSTV? (assuming good clips manips) This considering load times, of course.

If the answer is equal, then keeping DE will make no arm at all now nor the future, because even in a terrain in when a PS2 runners had access to a different strat than a PSTV runner, the last one compensates with load times, and in that case, adding a "Disc eject?" question when submitting runs could be neat.

If the answer is slower or faster, then we have a problem. Because if the run on PS2 is slower than in PSTV, with or without DE, those runners will have a incredible advantage over other console/emu users (I doubt PS2 DE is faster). Here we have a few solutions:

• Making a comparation and standaritation of total load times would be the best option. Actually, I mentioned it long time ago, when I was checking load times from emu vs console. Basically, sum up load times from a ps2 run, a PSTV run and a legal emu run, then add time (PSTV) or substract it (Emu) accordingly when someone submit a run. This is a great option, but a tedious one to elaborate. Also, doing this you CAN ban DE and leave everyone in equal terrain.

• Ban PSTV as a valid console for runs. This is thinking about that no one use PSTV right now on the leaderboards. The bad thing is that restricts a little future runners who wants to run the game, as it works like banning emu from the leaderboards, a things that a lot of us doesn't approve.

• Ban DE as a valid strat for runs whose times are under some time limit. Not a big fan of this option, but the reality is that DE helps a lot to new runners, that have to eventually learn better and harder clips.

This is considering every console best scenario in which PSTV is using well executed clips, and PS2 is using DE or well executed clips.

Now, what is my opinion about this matter? The true is Im a little "eh :/" because, as a long time emulator runner, I never had a problem with the fact that emu load times are slower than ps2 ones. But suddenly, when PSTV is a real and faster option, then is a matter to discuss. Im not gonna lie, but I could be nice to talk about emu load times first than this.

Letting this aside, I think very objectively and said that DE is not a problem at all. Even if it is a hardware manipulation or not, is not the first game to make use of a hardware to abuse something (Thinking specifically second controls, for example DKC Tropical freeze, in which you use a second control to get the characther you want, or Sonic 3 & Knuckles, to control Tails) and if you said that those are intended mechanics created by the programmers, well... half of the glitches founds on every game are not intended exploids, found by runners, and used even when "is not the way the game is intended to play". If we have to start banning things because of a moral thing, I think that's bad, because for me at least, DE is a strat that abuse a game mistake, and is on the same line that every other trick used in any game, that wasn't intended to do in the first place by the programmers.

The only way I think is good to ban DE is when talking about time consistency, and I already left my technical thoughts up here. Also, the natural progression of a speedrun community is to practice new strats and made them better than past strats, so, maybe is normal that eventually this new clip strats would be better options, and there will be no need to ban DE.

Either way, I'll support any decision made. Sorry for the long comment

I feel like people are mainly thinking this whole discussion is based around the whole "equal footing" thing, which I disagree with. I'm mainly against disc eject because allowing hardware manipulation in a speed run is really sketchy when you're talking about using glitches in the game.

One kinda similar example is from a while ago in the Crash community, where the emulator psxfin (aka pSX) was banned, and skicrazedteddy got upset about it being banned. Teddy pointed out constantly that since it is slower than PS2, it should be allowed, similar to how people are saying that since disc eject is slower, then it should be allowed. We constantly reminded Teddy, however, that psxfin is a horribly inaccurate emulator, and should not have been allowed in the first place, similar to how disc eject is hardware manipulation and should not have been allowed in the first place.

I just want to clear up that a lot of people seem to be disagreeing about what the main point of this discussion is. If the discussion were version differences, you could compare to things like Citadel Skip in Jak 1, which is only on some black label versions (and possibly some greatest hits versions?). If the discussion were console differences, you could compare to Sly 1, where a backwards compatible PS3, despite how rare they are, has such a huge difference in times (almost a minute). If the discussion were load times, you could compare to any game that removes load times. It's also possible to time loadless, if you're so inclined (you can time average load per console type and count up number of loads if you don't want to be entirely precise about things, especially if there isn't huge variety in loads).

But no, the discussion is about hardware manipulation. This is hardware manipulation. Such a thing is generally STRICTLY banned in speedrun communities. Why, then, is it allowed here? If the answer is just because it has been allowed in past runs, that's not a healthy reason to keep this in. Many people are... I want to say "ethically" but am not sure if that's the right word? but they're against hardware manipulation in runs, and this can keep people from joining the community and this run.

Ignore that it's only possible on some consoles. Ignore whether it saves or loses time. The question is: do you want to allow hardware manipulation such as disc eject while continuing to play the game? Keep in mind that this is disallowed elsewhere. WHY should it be allowed here? That's what I want to pose to the people saying to keep allowing it.

The thing is you can't just talk about banning or not DE without taking account of how this will affects partiality between differents setup of consoles. Just talking about "we have to do this because everyone does" or appeal to "I think this is not a good think to do for """ethical""" reasons" will only create solutions based on not-technical reasons, and that's bad.

Personally, I think that because every other communities doesn't allow something like this, OUR community doesn't has to follow if there are no technical reasons to do it. We have to keep or line of thoughts thinking about this community and not others. Every game had his tricks and strats, even some weird ones, but nobody should define what the community had to do based of what other communities does or thinks.

So, basically, I encourage everyone to give TECHNICAL reasons to ban/not ban DE.

So, about DE, to be honest, I always felt weird about it and i vote agains't using it. Back then when it was discovered, we were only like 4 or 5 runners and if someone told me it would get to AGDQ, I would have been skeptical. It kinda played in favor of DE since nobody would have cared if it looked bad. Then, when Joester arrived and beat my time, i felt like since i had WR for a while, i'd look like a salty sore loser if I complained about gateskip. (even though i knew Joester beat me through skills and practice, congrats again ^^)

Also, we may say it's been used for a long time, but this community is barely 2 years old(?). If we want changes, better do them now before it grows too big. With the attention PMW got in marathon, new runners may appear.