Opening this for anyone to contribute about any possible speedy stuff in Final Remix.

Specifically interested in:

-What ruleset should this version have compared to the others? -General differences and things that can be exploited in this version -Decks/equipment for each partner -Is 1p2c worth it?

Contribute with anything you may have! Vids are greatly appreciated

My general scattered thoughts:

-Since the game is mostly a port of Solo Remix it should end timing in the same place (touching the big pin to kill Draco Cantus). However, this time the hardware is consistent rather than having to choose between DS/3DS or multiple possible phones, so I'd say that SDPP scumming with date change could probably be allowed.

-1p2c will easily be the fastest way to play, and it will be tragic and fun

-Outside of 1p2c, running just any deck with any partner is...bad. Overlapping inputs with the partner and building a lot of sync is gonna be the way to go. This makes Beat very overpowered, as most godlike pins are a hold input. Joshua's crazy imprecise and Shiki is pretty inefficient.

-As some of you may know, Lightning Rook is BONKERS. Unfortunately you can't really get it until very late in the game. Pins that were extremely good with puck strats are significantly nerfed, and this includes Burst Rounds, which was the main way to go in Any%. Unfortunately One Stone Many Birds is VERY inefficient at 3 shots and no puck power up. Its evolution One Stroke Vast Wealth is much better, with double the uses, it can be obtained starting in Beat day 3, or by SDPP, so pick your poison on that.

-Pretty much the same poverty equipment of Any% (Purple Sneakers, Brown Baby Tee, Green Warm-ups) works to generate a lot of fusion. Many bosses die very fast to lvl3, or even lvl2 fusions, so I don't see the general route not being about that.

I've done a 1p2c run. Time on final pin touch was 3:53:57

I based it off the old DS route mostly, the one thing I will say is that burst rounds are awful to actually use compared to DS. I don't know what happened but something with the press motion broke on this version. I've instead focused on more basic slash pins and want to reevaluate pins later.

I don't know what individual points of attack do but I'm adding more of them instead of flat health with food where I can. I'm not sure that it's correct or worth it.

Any fusion attack is 26 seconds for the whole thing.

Shiki is really broken. The spin is crazy lockdown and dps. In general, you can beat enemies with her faster than with a level 2 fusion including most bosses so avoiding using fusions as much as possible with her is huge

Joshua is meh but also doesn't have to do a lot. If the laser press worked more often, he'd be okay but I can't get it to consistently fire when I want it to. Yay press empty space command being broken.

Beat does some Shiki stuff but worse. He's a lot more reliant on fusions so rushing his level 3 is huge. Uzuki and Kariya is by far the worst fight in the game and red pin isn't much better; I've had them be stuck out of bounds. You have to bring something ranged in or you can get psuedo softlocked.

Most of the other stuff is identical. There's an argument to be made for going back to the Sun Emperor for the flat stats and 20% bonus damage but it'd be risky and you'd give away a minute getting the rare metals for it. Tough call imo.

Also I'd separate the categories into solo and coop. 1p2c is cool but it's unenforceable. People can do coop on their own if they wish.

Idk if I'd count 1p2c as a solo run or as actual coop, that was my main gripe if they are separated categories, but I agree with them being separated. For now I'll just verify it as Any%.

For a mostly improvised run, it does show most of the strats for bosses that I feel are optimal, although some pin choices could be definitely better. I'm still debating if the day change trick should be allowed for this version but it would mostly only be useful to get an actual useful Burst Rounds pin.

Alternatively there's the All Secret Reports strat: Melodi Corehogs in week 3 drop One Stroke Vast Wealth in Normal at 0.9%, and you have to beat a few of them during W3D4, so reduce level to 1 use fusion and try to get those. 6 uses makes them way more reliable and they are good for cross combos.

Food is gonna be tricky, but they absolutely buffed ATK capsules and they take 6 bytes, they could easily be exploited. BUT they cost 20k a pop. I haven't tested if Pi-Face's Cap has the same BRV requirement but if not we can probably skip buying BRAVE+ there. Outside of that, House Blend is still fantastic to get sync, but it's not like that's gonna be as important this time around.

To me, that's just how I feel. 1p2c is hard to enforce, so I'd personally prefer to just say it's a coop run and have them on the same board with a potential flag for solo or coop if people care.

I think unless there becomes a more consistent way to use burst rounds, I don't really want to use them and kinda hope they don't become meta. They truly feel awful to use in this version compared to the DS version (where they were awkward but usable) and I can't figure out why or how to make them work normally. I do think they're higher DPS than what I'm using if I could make them work. It's especially problematic when cross combos do so much damage and so far, lockdown seems almost as valuable as DPS; if I can hold a boss in place with a 2x cross combo multiplier, I can shred it. That's the idea behind shockwave and vulcan uppercut pins currently, even if shockwave falls off super hard by late game.

Something I didn't do but could look into, the food resets at midnight real time. We could have Neku eat twice as much without changing the clock if we set the time an hour or so to midnight, if there is larger but more valuable food. That said, I'm a bit hesitant just because changing system clock can be a pain. At the same time, it's not something bannable since you can't say "You can't do a run that starts before X time". For the same reason, system clock shenanigans should probably be allowed, I just don't expect them to be super good, especially factoring in resyncing the controllers which is suuuuuuper scary. You touch them wrong during the sync process and you get a nasty drift that takes a solid minute to sort out. And if you get it on the 2P joycon, you actually don't know until you get into a fight.

I think early miso ramen might be really useful, at least for Shiki and Joshua. It's only a +2 to attack but still, flat HP really isn't that useful imo. If people were going to die, they'd die regardless I feel. I haven't figured out how Sync works but I think it actually carries over up to 100% from fight to fight as opposed to how it used to work. Keeping up sync is likely not something that we're going to have too much control over unless we need to hold food for specific fights (Uzuki and Kariya, especially red pin would be nice).

did a run myself, clocked in at slightly over four hours

Yeah I really don't see Burst Rounds ever being usable in this version on the sheer merit that Press Empty Space is 100% fucked and can't be triggered reliably. Better DPS doesn't mean a whole lot if you can't hit shit with it.

Anyway, a routing idea I had was just sticking with Masamune as your shockwave pin over Shock Warning. Final Remix removed mingle PP so now Masamune evolves into Nenekiri with BPP instead of MPP, which has better base attack than Shock Warning Better DPS, I'd have thought? Though you'd be super reliant on Joshua on that one bit of Pork City, but maybe just swapping in Shock Warning for that one section would be sufficient? I think we buy it anyway for friendship gauge on that shop.

i'm also trying to find something better to use than meteor magnet, which I admit is just personal preference because I hate using that pin lol

Meteor Magnet was just a "throw every pin on and see which one actually does somewhat okay DPS when not slashing". That was a free pin that did decently. There's a "press enemy" pin you get for free that I'm super curious about because that motion works well and when paired with something like telekinesis or Beat, it's incredible lockdown and DPS. But yeah, the reason Meteor Magnet was pick was the same reason there's the kangaroo boomerang pin (too lazy to look at notes atm). I couldn't beat Izuki and Kariya, I threw that pin on and the fight worked. I didn't fight it, it seemed decent enough and that fight is awful.

Shock Warning isn't needed for shopkeeper affection. It was added because higher base stats and I didn't think Masamune would evolve again. For Pork City, you just use a deck of the starter pins if Shock Warning isn't used. I'm also wondering if the Mus Rattus boost pin would be good if a bit difficult to get; I'm assuming that's a 20% damage boost?

Maybe we need to play around with Burst rounds more; I'm assuming Herreteman wouldn't be looking at them if the motion didn't work for him. That's the one holdup keeping me from outright dismissing them.

Due to Remix's different mechanics than DS, I feel that Beat is better suited to wearing all-out ATK threads rather than having the faster sync setup (Brown Baby Tee/Green Warm-Ups/Purple Sneaks) which only gives +4 ATK. Unlike Neku, Beat has 200%+ efficiency for all his psychs, so I feel extra ATK would be better. That means Beat's equip routing must be entirely redone.

EDIT: Definitivo Chili Dog sidequest removed, not worth it

W2D4: Buy San Francisco @ Wild Boar Udagawa (+7 ATK cap is the best you can get for cheap). Maybe buy extras for Neku/Joshua. W2D6: Buy 3 Sparkling Silver at Shibu-Q for King Pendant later. W3D2: Sell enough pins to get 45k yen. Enter Wild Boar 104. Buy 2x New York to raise FSG to Lv3, then buy Hey Everybody (+7 ATK top), then buy Wild Boar Pendant and immediately quest buy King Pendant (+16 ATK accessory, requires 6x Rare Metal). Have Beat equip San Francisco/Hey Everybody/King Pendant/Purple Sneaks for +31 ATK. W3D5: Buy Negotiator @ Wild Boar 104 (+12 ATK top, +40% sync). Replace Hey Everybody with it.

The main problem with trying to route giving Definitivo Chili Dogs to Beat is that there's just not enough fights in his week. Ideally, by day 5 you will only complete 13 fights after digesting BRAVE+, so in order to fully get the benefits of feeding him that + a hot dog you'd have to go out of your way to do fights or get very unlucky with Reaper encounters. This would lose more time than is worth routing in.

In the Any% route burgers and the Shoyu Ramen were just used as buffer food for sync since stats for partners weren't that huge of a difference, but they're gonna be pretty important this time around. Consider changing all of them to Miso Ramen and Hot Dogs respectively, Naraka + most sync foods can also be skipped to save money.

I like Gippy's idea to get a Choice Meat early but going so out of the way for a Chili Dog seems excessive. Buying normal Hot Dogs in W1D5 and then buying the Chili Dogs in W2D3/4 is probably a better choice. W2D2 could also be used but the Reaper blocking access to Spain Hill NEEDS a Chili Dog, I don't think the early detour just to open it and get another one is worth it.

About the run going past midnight, not only is it an arbitrary thing to ban, but I also use it as a strat for NDS All Secret Reports lol. Coincidentally also to eat a Chili Dog. So yeah I'd wholeheartedly allow it, even though I don't feel like it would make a difference.

Ninja edit: it's worth noting that I've been playing more in handheld since it was more convenient for me, so hold inputs were not as terrible to me. They may be absolutely dreadful in docked, but if I still suggest Burst Rounds it's because they are still pretty good damage-wise, just not nearly as good as they used to be.

The Chili Dog detour takes maybe an extra 2-3 minutes and is needed to get a Sparkling Silver anyway. (3 are required for King Pendant.) The Funky Shades discount, plus the 3 yen bonuses from the 3 walls, is worth it. ATK Capsules falls under the fullness threshold, so maybe use that instead if there's money.

Let's see, the fights are forced bounty, Pteropus, Uzuki, box puzzle (9), Kariya, both, multi-reaper, berserk, Tigris, Megumi. That's 18 fights. Maybe there's room for 1 or 2 more pig fights.

I think Beat having +25 ATK with San Francisco/Hey Everybody/King Pendant over Naraka/Green Warm-Ups/Brown Baby Tee is the way to go. Fusions will be slightly slower, but this translates into nearly triple damage for his regular hits, and an extra 496 dmg with Lv2 4.0x fusion, or an extra 744 dmg with Lv3 4.0x fusion. A Lv2 fusion should be able to 1HKO Uzuki.

The problem with going out of your way is how little you actually fight. The longest fights are rarely longer than 2 minutes. I can’t imagine it’s worth spending 3 minutes, even if Beat does a majority of the damage, especially when half of his fights can be a race to a level 2/3 fusion attack. So shorter fights are almost not long enough to reap the benefits and longer fights don’t benefit as much.

I absolutely disagree on dropping Naraka but maybe I need to play with it. Cross combos are huge both because they increase your damage and the lockdown they provide. I think it’s new passive is still crazy good in a different way.

Also if you could mess with press inputs on docked and just let me know if I’m crazy, that’d be awesome. The only press input I’m not struggling massively with is Shiki’s spin and I used to run the DS version.

Naraka's ability is +5.5% dmg per CC hit. And it's rounded down. So Neku with Naraka in most cases will be doing +1 damage per CC hit if the hit dealt 36HP or less. It would benefit the partner more, especially Beat, as Beat hits at 225% efficiency with his main press psych.

I watched Punchy's stream and the W3 fights were way longer than a minute, and the Lv3 fusions were just short of a 1HKO. So that's enough to convince me that this is the way to go. Even saving 10 seconds on each of the 9 box puzzle fights due to Beat's increased ATK is a 1.5 minute save.

Now that the puck is gone, the equips need a different focus. Neku's psych efficiency is so low that the pin ATK mainly carries his damage output.. +1 dmg for Neku is equivalent to +3 ATK with psychs like Shockwave. But the partners benefit greatly from increased ATK: Beat gets +2 dmg per +1 ATK.

One subtle change from Solo Remix to Final Remix are the starting sync+ threads. In Solo Remix, they increased sync% from the starting value. That meant if you had 50% w/+40% starting sync, you'd start with 70%. In Final Remix, it's simply added on. So Beat with Love+Peace and Negotiator will always get +80%, even from a starting sync of 0%, which occurs if you ended the previous fight with a fusion. This may be worth pursuing as Beat's fights aside from the box puzzles aren't chained. Love+Peace is +40% sync and +8 ATK, while King Pendant is +16 ATK. Tough call.

Thunder Rook is something to consider, but it's only easily available on W3D6 (W3D5 is too much of a detour), and Neoclassical Drake drops it at 3% on easy. (At level 1 you'd have about a 50/50 shot of getting the drop, though a Lv3 4.0x fusion adds 12 drop stars, making it ~85%.) Thunder Rook would only benefit the 3 fights on W3D7. Note that Remix Thunder Rook is stronger than DS Lightning Rook, so even with this extra fight, enough time may be saved on Megumi and Draco for Thunder Rook to be worth it.

Lastly, Tin Pin Thrift (+30% ATK, lose 75% HP) is always an option to consider. In a hypothetical world where this game is as optimized as Super Mario Bros, I'd think that Tin Pin Thrift would achieve WR times. But SOS in Remix causes constant beeping unlike in DS, and I'd go insane hearing that for half the run. Someone else can test that, lolol

IMO Thunder Rook may be good enough to justify trying to get it, but to have an efficient enough deck with it you'd need 2 and that may take more time than it's worth. However, it is an easy mode drop that is not required by the story, so by the traditional rules you'd have to get it in Normal. Neoclassical Drake's N drop is 10k yen at 10%, so the odds of getting the E one instead are...pretty low.

Tin Pin Thrift is probably not worth it just by the fact that you would need to beat Tenho in Tin Pin. SDing is just way faster in every single aspect.

Beating Tenho is super easy: just choose a pin with 3 (or more) stingers and immediately use the stinger (spiked ball) when play starts. Tenho will ram his pin into your stinger and then you can easily KO. I've beaten Tenho in under 20 seconds this way. But again, I really wouldn't enjoy the beeping and the very real risk of being erased (they're already dead), especially in a 4-hour speedrun.

The traditional rules state that all fights must be done on normal unless it’s done for a drop specifically (the exception was made for a story requirement). I’m not sure I’d be opposed to easy mode being allowed for a drop only, considering the rule is already slightly arbitrary.

Would Tin Pin Thrift trigger Sun Emperor too? Do those stack? That might create a crazy effect.

Yes. SOS boosts raise both pin ATK and character ATK, so Sun Emperor is a straight up +15% ATK. Combined with Tin Pin Thrift and Camouflage (low BRV pants at Wild Boar 104), that's +65% ATK. I'm not sure if that's substantial enough, as SOS is usually done with Ribbon Mini-hat/Red Two-tier Skirt/Vampire Dress, which gives +110% ATK. Sadly, Lapin Angelique clothes are too expensive for the speedrun.

Beefing up Beat's ATK so that he does nearly triple damage compared to what he did in your run seems way more appealing than attempting SOS, and I don't think there's enough money to do that and get Sun Emperor. (Neku could still wear Camouflage.)

I would recommend against doing SOS until you can consistently run the regular setup with no game overs to within a 10-minute consistency. The week 3 bosses look tougher especially with the less accurate joycon setup. Press psychs and slash up psychs are miserable, and they seem less responsive even when using a stylus. Something got screwed in the port. Press psychs only seem to work if your pointer is completely still, so good luck keeping one hand steady while the other moves.

Hmm... this sounds equally miserable but I wonder if lowering joycon sensitivity to 1 or 2 might make the press action more viable. I’ll test it. I normally have been playing with 4.