For the RTA w/ mods category:
I noticed that at the end of a level, I can't skip the level stats and the save prompt quick enough because it's waiting for a music track to be loaded from disc. Reducing the music volume to 0 didn't have any effect to stop this from happening.
Is it ok to alter the game code there to actually not load this CDDA track at the end of a level? Or to do it similar to the PC version which is .dll modded to intercept calls of playing CDDA music tracks on the disc-only release to local transcoded music files instead, which is done for saving a couple of seconds of loads there.
It'd be only fair to reduce the hate on the "slow RTA" PS1 version when people compare those platforms.
Can a reason be given for this?
It's basically the same behavior on the PC version with the original version (disc-only release) that needs to load the CDDA track from disc before continuing.
Where you guys
- Crack the game so local files can be loaded instead of a (mounted) disc.
- .DLL mod the runtime to intercept calls of playing CDDA to transcoded local music files instead.
Why is it ok there and not on PS1?
We're currently refactoring rules and rewording parts of them; many resources and/or forum posts may change, and/or new ones may be added. (No exact date for the rollout, but hopefully pretty soon.)
For these reasons, I'd prefer to stall questions regarding reasons behind current rules. Hopefully after said changes, things will be much clearer for both askers and answerers. (There's also the possibility of a current answer or rule becoming invalid after the changes, which could cause more confusions.)
Feel free to message me on Discord if you'd like to discuss anything further. Until said changes have been made, I'll be locking these kinds of threads per my parenthetical statement above.
This thread has now re-opened. Please review the new rules and the version swapper resource's documentation before continuing discussions.
PC uses different audio files and a .dll to allow them to play, this is done so that we can have music working when playing the game, otherwise we have nothing. This is not done to "save time". PS doesn't have this issue. It's strange that you fully understood this last year but now have no memory if it.
There is no comparison between PC and PS RTA time as they are different categories with different leaderboards. Please explain the "hate" about the PS version? I mean it takes a while to complete and is kinda laggy.. does that mean I hate it now? Please clarify what you mean.
Could you point to the .dll that is playing the CDDA music tracks of the original version which currently is the fastest? Because I can't find one in the installed files in that version: https://gitlab.com/tombraiderspeedruns/trs_version_database/blob/master/tr2/pc/original/german_game_guide/installed_files.csv
Because for that version the CDDA music tracks are directly played from the disc from the disc. It is designed to be played along the game separately by the operating system, for old setups, the disc drive directly transmits analog audio to the sound card through an audio cable between disc drive and sound card, which then gets mixed together with the game output and then transmitted.
It's also the reason the CDDA music tracks can't be interrupted and thus there's music in the inventory and when underwater:
With later windows versions and with SATA CD drives the direct analog audio cable was dropped and all this is done in software with the same behavior.
All in all very similar behavior to PS1 for the original PC release.
I'm assuming though that the .dll you refer to is it mixed in from another version along with the transcoded CDDA music tracks from that other version?
And glad you asked about the PS1 hate, here are some screenshots that may clarify what I referred to: https://imgur.com/a/JbzsjYE
If you are having troubles with the method you are running the game then there are other methods. You were running just fine not too long ago, but if there is anything you additionally need you can find it in the guides/resources area.
Your runs in the pic were not labeled with the correct timing methods for the category, this made the time appear much lower than it should be. I cannot help you if the PS version can be difficult to watch or play for some people.
Why wouldn't you address the things I stated in my post?
The original and botched versions behave just like the PS1 version regarding sound.
You compared the PS1 versions with the "RTA w/ mods & version mixery" submissions that are done here.
I ask why similar modifications - screwing around with the sound to circumvent CDDA track loads that results in a lower RTA - can't be done for the PS1 version for consistency? I'd like to have some statement on why it is ok for the PC version and "No, it is not ok." for PS1 and why this can't be changed? Doesn't have much to do with the PS1 version being "difficult to watch" for some people.
My PC run has an RTA timer in the video that would be compatible with the rules on the speedrunning leaderboards on this site here. I choose to use the In-Game Timer for timing as that is the timer implemented by the official developers of the game which was carefully crafted and isn't based on mods, version mixery and hardware power (I'm running on a Win98 rig without mods, version mixery and with dated hardware) which makes it suitable for submissions on speeddemosarchive.com as well. Honestly I'm not sure why the timing method is even being brought up... I posted the video (it's a video, not a pic, you can click on it to play) to refer to the behavior of sound for the the original version to be listened to. Actually provided a timestamp with the youtube link, but apparently link handler for this forum ate it up (still there in the page source though, below the formatted html that is being rendered).
Daren if you can't understand that PC and PS are different categories needing different rules and requirements then I have no idea how to help you. This and the reasons for this have been explained to you over and over again. Seriously like 100 times now over the years. Also you are not comprehending my post, please reread.
If you are not willing to accept results of community discussions/votes or decisions and just want to attempt to spitefully cause drama at every turn then you can go somewhere else.
I mean why can't the PS1 leaderboards be as peak degenerate as the PC leaderboards, it would only be fair in my opinion.
Couple mods here and there, couple files deleted, couple files mixed in from another version, all normal for the PC version, no biggie.
You already did it once, can it be done for the PS1 is the question?
Can you stop the off-topic that you started?
Let us backtrack and get back to the facts.
Quote from critzB: "PC uses different audio files and a .dll to allow them to play"
This is untrue for the game versions that are suitable for speedrunning. Again, the Original and Botched versions are disc only releases that play CDDA Audio tracks for music. The statement only matches the behavior for the Digital releases (Steam, GOG) which is currently sort of a useless game version to do speedruns with. The PS1 releases similarly play CDDA Audio tracks. Can it be made compatible™ as well or not?
I've noticed during my PS1 runs that cutscenes are also waiting for the CDDA disc track to load (I guess so the cutscenes are in sync), it would be comfortable if those loads could be reduced as well. Maybe it's possible to modify the code that plays the disc track to do a non-blocking call (possibly resulting in desync).
The PC RTA runs highly depend on this version mixery that is done with files from the Digital version if I am informed correctly. So, why can't something similar be done for the PS1 speedruns (either non-blocking calls or play sound files from the data disc) for a quicker RTA?
Here another comparison how the PS1 music behaves similarly like the unmodified PC music on the Original version (music plays while underwater), hope the timestamps work this time:
PS: The PC (non-cracked/no version mixery) CDDA Track loads are all blocking calls that make the game wait for the track to play afaik (in-game, cutscene and stats screen). For PS1 the in-game tracks that play seem to be non-blocking.
Why are you asking the same question again when you have already been given the answer? (Did you even read past the part you quoted Daren? Doesn't look like it.)
As you have shown no willingness to be part of rule votes or discussions on discord, I will post this again for you - "If you are not willing to accept results of community discussions/votes or decisions and just want to attempt to spitefully cause drama at every turn then you can go somewhere else."
It's pretty evident you are just desperate for attention. I think it's about time you grew up Daren.
A quick note: The version terminologies Daren uses (Original/Botched) are not what we use; also you imply those are "the useful versions worth running." Those names and that idea are relevant to the leaderboard you host, which as you know Daren, takes a much more purist philosophy than the one here on srcom. But those names and that idea aren't currently applicable to this website. To submit onto this leaderboard, the rules and version names here are the ones that apply.
To me, the simple summary is that we have a different ruleset than you think we should. It's ok for us to agree to disagree, and by extension, it's ok for you to host your own leaderboard as a result.
Speaking to all sides: the tangents about "PS hate" are irrelevant. Runners' biases toward PS or PC don't affect the rules as written. PC is dealt with separately from PS; this is very unlikely to change. There is no malice or ill intent in that fact: it's a product of inherent differences between the platforms as well as the compatibility and accessibility issues with modern PCs and old TR games. To hopefully be more clear, here's a general statement regarding this and other "classic" TRs: The specific rules and discussions regarding one platform may be completely irrelevant when discussing another platform.
So to confirm the final, definite answer to the original request asking for permission to mod PS files: "No, it is not ok." The answer to "Why?": doing so violates this leaderboard's PS platform rules; that fact remains irregardless of this leaderboard's PC platform rules.
Mod note: This started as a question which has received a definitive answer both before and after the leaderboard revamp; the answer is now directly backed by current rules. The thread will remain open for on-topic discussions, but if tangents or ad hominems continue, the thread will be locked.
Ok, alright...
Actually I discovered not too long ago that the single frame advance strat on PS1 relies on the music track restarting and stopping in-between unpausing and popping up the inventory. So playing music from local files that lie around in the data track would probably make that strat not work anymore (like in TR3 onwards where music plays from a file)
In other words: Nevermind then.
