In a game I run, me and another guy are trying to get a time below 30 minutes, while we have PBs (and WR/former WR) in the 30m20s.
Now, analysis on our best segments show that this is very doable (an ideal run with no mistake and perfect luck would be at around 29m), but it's hard to avoid any significant blunder, and there will always be some amount of unluck (there are small random events across the run, most won't take out more than 2-3s, though in some specific spots it can result in a bigger run-killing loss).
And so this got me thinking : when is the best time to reset a run ?
I should clarify what I mean by resetting "early" and "late".
Resetting "late" means only resetting when there is no significant hope of besting the WR, i.e. enough time has been lost that it would require practically no mistake/bad luck until the end to barely succeed.
Resetting "early" means trying to get a significant advantage in the beginning of the run, resetting if on par/slower than WR pace at some point (or even faster, but not by much), even if there is still room for some bad luck and mistakes in the final part to still snatch a best time.
For some games and categories (especially those with no luck at all involved), if the WR/PB is optimized enough, there is no real difference between resetting early or late, as there is no room for error.
But in others, like mine currently, it's possible to lose 10s in a segment but still have a good shot for the record, so this question can really come up.
I can see some pro and cons to both strategies :
- Resetting late means more practice on the later parts of the run. The sooner you reset, the more often you'll do again and again the same parts at the beginning while doing only rarely those in the middle and in the end.
- Resetting late gives more opportunity to get a record with a strong finish even if the beginning was not that great.
- Resetting early means that less time is wasted in runs which are unlikely to succeed.
- Resetting early increases the chance to have a really good time in the middle of the run, and so leaves room for error, and increases the chance that when a run is finally done to its completion, the resulting time is lower.
So, what are you personal preferences ? How does it change whether you're 5% in, 25% in, 50% in or 90% in the run ? What do you think is the most efficient strategy to reduce grinding ?
Personally I try to finish as many runs as possible, and I only reset if I make a major mistake or I make enough small mistakes that it's literally impossible to PB. For my current speedgame, I have a pretty solid chance of getting a PB if I can get through the mid-game without losing a lot of time, so it's a pretty simple decision for me.
Sometimes hanging on til you know you cannot beat a PB for sure can pay off. You can get much better luck then you might expect, or perform better than before. Or the unusual might occur and by nothing you intended to do could cause a time save. Like a boss getting stuck on a corner, or some other odd glitch occurs that is beneficial. Had that happen once or twice.
My preference, but maybe not the one recommended, is reset to the first error. Each run completed, is a run of satisfaction for me, because it means that very little or no error has infiltrated my run.
The disadvantage, is a huge number of attemps. It is not uncommon for me to do the same run for several weeks, but never finish it. Just because a stupid mistake slips into it.
Not always mistakes I made. It could be a slowdown of my vehicle, reset. A slow animation, reset. The least second of difference, reset.
My situation may be different from yours too, I run the ILs, where small differences really matter.
It is really hard to generalize when it comes to this topic. It completely depends on the game and category.
Resetting late means more practice on the later parts of the run. The sooner you reset, the more often you'll do again and again the same parts at the beginning while doing only rarely those in the middle and in the end.
Only if there is no easy way to practice late game on its own. I'm a big advocate of section practice instead of just doing tons of attempts.
If the game is very linear the cutoff would be time-based and you would reset if you are too far behind to catch up and PB by the end. Other games have hard reset points like tight skips. In a lot of cases it would be a mix of both. Also depending on how optimized or not the run is it can be easy to underestimate how much time you can save.
I depends how optimal your current PB is, meaning how much time you can afford to waste. I run Battalion Wars, and I've reset in the first level a ton of times, and in the second due to a vaguely tricky skip. After that I only really reset if I straight up fail a level. I got WR recently on my 11th run of the night, by that point I'd basically gotten sick of resetting, especially after losing a run half an hour in.
(Edit : markdown quotes don't work here ?)
Thank you guys for your answers. I wasn't really seeking advice on what to do myself, rather, I was curious as to what other prefer and why.
It seems that both strategies have their adepts, from "reset at first significant error" to "only reset when it's completely over" to some middle-ground.
@ShikenNuggets and @theripper999 are clearly in the "reset only if there is no chance to succeed" camp, and it's true that a run which began bad can snatch a PB (or even WR). I actually have an example of this, which date from when the time was not very optimized (beside new skips). I was trying to practice a bit before starting serious attempts, and was around 15s behind during the first half. After 15 (of 19) segments, I was 25s behind. But I still ended up snatching the WR by 3s, because my previous time had a poor finish while the new one was solid.
This is not my personal preference. When you come from behind and just catch up at the end, you'll most often improve your time only by a little bit. Unlike Serguei Bubka, we don't get a cash prize for each new PB, and if you know that with your skills, you can do significantly better, you'll still have to try more and more.
@lolman-0027 [quote]My situation may be different from yours too, I run the ILs, where small differences really matter.[/quote] This is not so much a IL thing but a short run thing (see SMB1). We have ILs too in my game, thankfully without luck, and when the run last only 90s, and 0,5s can make the difference (we have the ms time enabled and the difference was sometimes less than 0,1s between two competing time), you're forced to reset a lot. But when you're forced to do close to no mistake to beat your record, there is no real difference between "resetting early" and "resetting late".
@TalicZealot [quote]Only if there is no easy way to practice late game on its own. I'm a big advocate of section practice instead of just doing tons of attempts.[/quote] In my game's case, each segment is easy to practice on its own. And actually, for the hard parts which come in the later part of the run, me and the others who have done some serious attempts have done section practice (and ILs, while slightly different, also act as a section practice).
Nonetheless, there is a difference.
Some segments are "easy" compared to others and not a big practice focus. However, this decreases consistency, and while big mistake aren't a serious concern there, some slight mistakes may slip in.
The other difference is pressure.
When practicing some of the "make or break" parts where a slight error can easily cause a loss of 10-20s, you're quite calm.
When you reach one such part while having done a very good time in the first half of the run, your heart is beating fast and it's harder to keep fully focused. I remember watching some mario game player who had a heart rate monitor displayed along his run, and in the final critical section (which was the hardest for him and where all the previous good parts of the run could be wasted), his heart began to beat much faster. I experienced the same when going for the record in my game, my heart began to beat twice as fast when I got past some tricky parts with a good time but had to not fail in the following tricky parts.
Resetting more often, the pressure is greater because an attempt getting half into the run will occur much more rarely, and when it does, the time is better so there is more to lose.
[quote]If the game is very linear the cutoff would be time-based and you would reset if you are too far behind to catch up and PB by the end. Other games have hard reset points like tight skips. In a lot of cases it would be a mix of both. Also depending on how optimized or not the run is it can be easy to underestimate how much time you can save.[/quote]
Good points.
In my case, I went with a sort of time-based cutoff, though rather than "too far behind to catch up", it was more "not ahead enough to account for screw-ups" (there also were opportunities to get ahead in the first quarter of the run without having to do really too much tries). Though I was going for sub-30 more than for purely a new PB, so it sort of was equivalent to "not too far behind to catch up". But if on pace for PB but not sub-30 after 75% of the run, I didn't reset, obviously.
@HowlingSnail [quote]I depends how optimal your current PB is, meaning how much time you can afford to waste.[/quote]
Absolutely. When it's unoptimized enough compared to your abilities, you can just try a few times and beat it without having to try to get a very good beginning.
In general, I'd be curious if we could develop a sort of dynamic computation of PB chances.
The software would have a list of times on various segments, would generate some probabilities for times based on this, and could take the current time after the last segment to compute. This would be imperfect, because if you begin using a new tech the segments time will be outdated, it wouldn't have a huge sample size, and it would need to value more recent attempts. But having some rough idea, when halfway into the run, of if you've a 3% or a 50% chance to beat your PB would be quite nice.
Just don't reset immediately when a small mistake happens, only reset when you are 100% sure you can't PB.
"In general, I'd be curious if we could develop a sort of dynamic computation of PB chances."
[quote=Alayan]if you know that with your skills, you can do significantly better, you'll still have to try more and more[/quote]
I guess it depends on what exactly your goal is. If your goal is absolute perfection then you'll have to reset anytime you lose any amount of time in order to be happy with whatever run you manage to complete, but if your goal is just to improve at all (which is generally what I'm going for) then you can hold off until getting a PB is completely impossible. Most people are going to be somewhere in the middle. What exactly your goal is with that run (whether that's a particular final time, or within a certain time/percentage of your sum of best, etc) is going to dictate when/if you should consider resetting.
On the subject of the PBChance component for LiveSplit that @Quivico brought up, it's probably worth noting that, while having that is great as a curiosity number, the underlying implementation of it is somewhat questionable, so I wouldn't take the number it gives you too seriously (on my most recent PB it hovered at <1% for 2/3 of the run).
Okay, so I'm going to tell you what I've learned so hopefully you don't have to make the same mistakes. If you reset early, you only practice the opening parts. You get really good at doing the first five-ten minutes, but when you finally get that amazing luck and everything goes perfect, if you haven't played past that part, you end up throwing it all away because you're not as good at the parts you didn't play. Regardless of whether or not you have a WR / PB on your hands, I'd say it's definitely worth playing all the way through so you'll be ready when that perfect luck does come through.
When you're on a WR / PB run, you know it, and everything gets more difficult, simply because it feels like it really counts this time. The better you are at those parts the more likely you'll make the right moves under that pressure.
Ideally you should also be practicing when not doing attempts. If the only time you're practicing sections is during attempts, that's fairly inefficient. If you have a problem with a particular section or find you're messing up X often, make a practice save and practice it. If you're losing runs due to bad luck, then there isn't much you can do about that.
Depending on the game and its length, I'll usually reset at the 50% mark if the run isn't going particularly well. Or if my performance just isn't to my liking.
I never reset when the only game I speedrun right now is 3 hours long and I only get one chance each stream.
I often reset when I lose 2 seconds on the first stage even when I know that I have like 20+ seconds to save later on. I just don't want to look back at the run to see this shitty first stage in an otherwise really nice run. The later in the run it gets, the less I reset tho unless something really bad happens that makes it impossible to get a pb.
But then again it depends so much on the game/run itself and your goal. How likely is it for you to be (significantly) faster at that potential reset point? How much timesave is there left to achieve the time you want? Would you be happy with that early game when looking back at the run?