Due to recent events, I would like to propose two new rules for this leader board. I'm sure many of you will agree with me that, at least one of these changes, would squash most of the doubt of any individuals' run and it will keep the board legitimate.
- A live input display must be visible and the buttons must be mapped correctly within the recorded video if emulation is used.
An input display, which is not very resource heavy on PCs, would show us what buttons are pressed and when they are pressed. We could tell from that tool alone if a L/R input was used. We could also verify that the buttons are actually being pressed by comparing the movements of Simba and the timing of the buttons. If an individual is found pre-recording video and splicing in an input display or trying to fake an input display in any way, it will be grounds for removal/banishment from the board. At that point, it would obviously be deception.
I do see one problem with this method, though. Someone could potentially map their left or right direction button(s) to a secondary button in their emulator and not map it to the input display. This wouldn't be as obvious but just because an input display is on screen doesn't mean we won't be looking for illegal moves.
- Certain emulators will be banned for certain functions they contain.
OR
- Only certain emulators will be allowed since they do not contain certain functions.
As an example, we'll look at BizHawk. Bizhawk is not just an emulator but it contains many tools that could be used for cheating. One of the major tools in BizHawk is the ability to make TAS (Tool-Assisted Speedrun) videos. Using this emulator would be sketchy in itself but emulators with known TAS functions should not be allowed.
Emulators that allow you to enable L/R inputs should be banned. BizHawk is an emulator that allows L/R inputs. Kega Fusion, for example, does not allow L/R inputs. I have tested L/R inputs on Kega myself and what it does is prioritizes left over right. This basically means that if you hold left and right at the same time, you will always just move left. There is also no way to activate the use of L/R inputs on Kega.
I have not yet looked into all of the emulators but I will look into as many as I can if we agree that this is a good way to go about it.
The problem that I see with this method is that I am not sure how to verify that a verified emulator was used. The only way I can think of is that the entire emulator window must be captured, not just the contents of the window. If anyone has any ideas or knows a good way to verify emulators, please let me know.
Please leave some input on any concerns or even some additions that I may have missed in this post.
Would the input display be for emulator runs? I'm not sure how to do display for console runs.
@cajink87 Yeah, it would only be for emulator use. I'm not sure if there even is a way to display inputs on a console other than having a second camera for your controller. Natively, the console doesn't allow L/R so there would be no reason to make console users have an input display.
My only thoughts would be that it might be worth adding a line like “Mandatory if posting a top 10 time” that way you still make it easier for a casual speed runners and don’t risk rejecting some high time runs.
I'm all for this idea, and is a common emulator rule in many established speedruns for basically the reasons that you mention. We can see if inputs are synchronized with the visible gameplay, and it allows us to pick up on abnormal behavior, such as perfectly timed sequences of inputs that you would see in macro usage. Furthermore, bizhawk should be banned, unless you require the "movie/no movie" toggle to be displayed on such runs. This would allow us to see if a TAS recording is being played back or not. Requiring a full screen display of the emulator may be necessary to let us know which emulator is being used, so that if bizhawk is used, we know to expect the "movie/no movie" display, as well as knowing if a banned emulator is being used or not.
Kega Fusion and Genesis Plus GX appear to be two commonly accepted emulators for this platform. Retroarch and OpenEmu (Mac) can both use a Genesis Plus GX core. I've often heard negative things about Retroarch in that it often sacrifices accuracy for stability in it's default options, so it perhaps some investigating should be done on that. OpenEmu is something I know little about outside of it's use of Genesis Plus GX as it's core for Genesis/MD.
Enabling the "Display FrameCounter", "Display Input", and "Display Messages" options in BizHawk and requiring the use of a soft reset instead of a core reboot so the frame counter doesn't reset should be enough to show there's no movie being played.
I feel like these requirements of input display and showing some sort of visible indication of what emulator is being used (probably through full window capture) are very simple to meet. I would lean more towards these being applied to all future submissions regardless of how fast the run is. However, if everyone rather have them only apply to more competitive submissions, then I'm fine with that as well.
@Akiteru thank you for bringing that to my attention. I don't think I knew about the "No Movie" thing or forgot about it. That's a good idea but why would it not be in our best interest to allow a hard reset? I mean if it already has "No Movie" displayed on screen, would that be necessary?
I do see it being somewhat necessary as someone could just edit "No Movie" into the recording.
There are many Emu's out there so I think not allowing BizHawk simply for it having so many tools, might be the best course.
Regarding input display: I agree with Insom and 8bit. It will add legitimacy to emulator runs, and since it is already heavily recommended, I see no problem in making it a rule.
Regarding the use of different emulators: I think the Genesis board should implement the rule that the Snes board has already implemented, which is to ban any emulator that enables L/R inputs. This seems to be the best way to make sure that this function is not used in a run. If Kega Fusion does not allow L/R inputs, then that should be the recommended emulator for genesis speedruns.
Regarding Mac OS: Kega Fusion has not been optimized for Mac OS since 2017. It does not work on the current versions of the operating system. This means Mac users have the option to use either OpenEmu, Genesis Plus, or Retroarch. Now I have used both OpenEmu and Genesis Plus in the past, and unfortunately, both of them allow a L/R input. Retroarch I have not used, but according to what 8bit is saying, its emulation is not accurate. Due to this, I propose that all 3 of these emulators should be disallowed.
The implementation of the new rules would then mean that at the present moment, Mac users cannot actually submit a speedrun. They will need to either switch to Windows, or to console. Now I am personally fine with that, and I may switch to Windows in time, so that I can record runs on Kega Fusion, with input display enabled, and submit them. If there are no other Mac users in the leaderboard as of this moment, then I suppose we are good to go.
Finally, owing to the fact that all my previous runs have been recorded on OpenEmu, they would become void with the implementation of the new rules. Thus, they have been removed. The individual level runs will also be removed. I hope to do more speedruns of the game, but maybe in a few weeks or a few months. (OpenEmu does not allow L/R input for Snes, so my Snes runs remain on the leaderboard)
"There are many Emu's out there so I think not allowing BizHawk simply for it having so many tools, might be the best course."
I agree with this. I feel it's a bit unnecessary to add all of these restrictions to one emulator. It's much easier to just ban it all together. I would say it's worth it if it were hard to get an emulator, but since downloading another emulator is so easy... it's just.. yeah.
"The implementation of the new rules would then mean that at the present moment, Mac users cannot actually submit a speedrun. They will need to either switch to Windows, or to console. Now I am personally fine with that, and I may switch to Windows in time, so that I can record runs on Kega Fusion, with input display enabled, and submit them. If there are no other Mac users in the leaderboard as of this moment, then I suppose we are good to go."
@KingTayyab I am a mac user actually. But I just used bootcamp to change my system to windows. It's definitely an option if that's what you want to do.
@Stormy I'll definitely consider all options when I decide to start running again
Just to be clear, I would not consider myself an expert on Retroarch, or any emulator really, and my caution for Retroarch comes from what I've heard from others. It is actually interesting to note that the Genesis Sonic leaderboards (1, 2, 3&K) all allow it to be used as long as the Genesis Plus GX core is used and the Retroarch main menu displaying the current core is shown before the run. The following excerpt can be found in the game rules for each of those games:
"Emulator Rules
The following unofficial emulators are allowed: Kega Fusion, Genesis Plus GX (standalone or through Retroarch.) Links to these emulators can be found in the Resources tab.
The Emulator used must be adequately identifiable at some point during the run (preferably at the start).
Examples
Fusion (only 1 needed) FPS Visible in the bottom of the window. Text in the bottom right either showing: Soft Reset Hard Reset x Startup (where x is either "Genesis", "MegaCD" or "Master System")
Retroarch Showing the Retroarch Menu that displays the Genesis Plus GX core and version in the bottom left. If not shown at the start of the run, please provide a timestamp in the run description of where this is shown."
So perhaps if the Genesis Sonic community has accepted Retroarch under these conditions, maybe it's not so bad after all? However, if you are able to perform L+R input this way, then it is not fitting our current criteria here anyways. I've tried to test it out myself, but I cannot get the dang thing to work on my end.
Sorry for the rant, but I figured this info might be of interest. :)
@8BitsOfJoy I was planning on doing testing after I got this out in the open and see what everyone thought. If the reaction from everyone was positive, I was going to start doing testing on some emulators. If you would like to, or if anyone else would like to help in that process, please feel free. It would definitely help with making sure we are accurate with our findings.
Since there seems to be a general agreement on requiring an input display for runners that use an emulator, I plan on updating the rules to include this on Saturday, August 15, 2020. There will be a grace period of 3 days after the rule has been implemented in case a run has been submitted that does not contain an input display or in case a runner did not know of the updated rules.
I will need more input on @PlayingWithDick's idea of only requiring it for the top 10 slots. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing it in all runs but I am fine with just the top 10.
As for the verified emulators, it looks like we'll still need more time to decide. I feel that as long as we allow emulators that don't allow / can disable the use of L/R, then we'll be set.
I will still be watching this thread for any concerns or questions regarding either rule.
As for the top 10 input rule, eehh? I mean.. I really don’t think it’ll make a difference. Either you cheat or you don’t.
On the counter side however... I THINK it might be fine to let it follow just the top 10. I only say this just to save new runners and just let them relax until they can settle in and get used to running the game.
I can’t speak for any new runner, but I would hope the input thing wouldn’t turn them away from running the game. I think allowing it to just run with the top 10 would be fine. If the runners become more “serious” about running the game and enter the top 10, then yeah they’ll need to begin using input displays.
I don’t know if any of that made sense but I think some can get the general idea of what I’m trying to say.
Basically: if you become serious about running this game and enter top 10, then you gotta do display, if you’re just doing a one and done and has no intentions of top 10 then it wouldn’t really be necessary.
