Resident Evil (Remake) - Forums - Stair Skating using the Analogue Stick

Hi guys,

A couple of folks have asked me while I'm streaming how I'm stair skating using the right analogue stick. This is simple enough to do using a program like InputMapper, but I thought I'd make a thread here because this technique may be helpful to people who would like to speedrun the game but are being put off by stair skating, or people like myself who already run the game but aren't satisfied with their skating.

This idea came about by realizing firstly that I should be using the right analogue stick for better purposes. Most of the time it was just getting in the way, causing me to inadvertently quickturn while I was attempting to stair skate using the run button. This immediately had me wondering if I could use it to enhance my skating in some way rather than hinder it.

So the theory is simple: One movement of the analogue stick activates the run state, deactivates the run state (as the stick passes through the deadzone), and activates the run state again (upon exit of the deadzone).

InputMapper settings:

RS Up: X RS Down: X RS Left: Unmapped RS Right: Unmapped RS Button: A (needed when you're running using the stick)

Axis Tuning:

Sensitivity: 125% Angle Offset: 0% Curve: 0% Deadzone: -45% (smaller deadzone = smaller movement required to stair skate) Deadzone Type: Axial

Demo:

This clip was taken from my runs yesterday. I have achieved full animation lock as part of my testing, I'm just not consistent enough using this technique yet to pull off complete locks reliably during live runs.

Edit: ignore my use of the shoulder button in the clip - use the RS button instead.

Hope this helps somebody out there in Resident Evil land.

Hmm, to me it sounds like cheating. You're repurposing existing buttons on the controller to help you increase your stair skating speed. At that point, why not using a turbo controller? What's the difference? And turbo controllers are definitely not allowed.

However, maybe the other mods will disagree with me.

I guess I'm the one that verified your run, I should have paid more attention to the noise in the background, that definitely didn't sound like the square button being mashed! XD Shame on me! ;_;

What's the difference between remapping the right analogue stick to perform a different function and using a turbo controller?

Automation.

JMO that may or may not mean anything to anyone (I linked Carci this thread so he can put in his thoughts later):

I see both sides on this, but overall don't have a problem with it.

My gut reaction was honestly "woah wtf" when Zeroth told me that's what he was doing the other day. At the same time, I think it's a goofy technique that is stupid uncomfortable to me, but if it works for him, hell why not. If he were using a turbo button then I'd think it's cheating, but he's still putting in the physical effort just in a different way... and it's not exactly more efficient.

To top it off, he's shared it with the community and wasn't trying to hide it, so I don't believe there is any ill intention.

Think about it this way, he's also handicapping himself and is no longer able to use that bumper button in the item menu and shake off zombies with the analog stick (that's the way I shake off zombies is using both analogs). Also, if he wants to move to consoles? He's not helping himself that way either.

Over time I've learned to stair skate better and it's rewarding, but not all of us can simply push the button fast enough. Some of us are probably even double jointed in the thumb which would potentially give them a psychical advantage, like my gf who can button mash the square button stupid fast compared to me (RawDerps are you here to confirm or deny my conspiracy theory?!).

With that said, if everyone decides it shouldn't be allowed, I completely understand (especially for more consistency across all platforms). At the end of the day, third party software -is- being used to change how the controls function...

I just think if Zeroth is willing to accept the flaws with his technique to be able to enjoy the game a little better... whatever.

I should point out that I overcame the right bumper limitation that CursedToast referred to by remapping the RS Button instead. I have edited the original post to reflect this change.

I was never under the impression that you, Zeroth, had any ill intention. I'm just questioning the legitimacy of doing such a thing.

Maybe my choice of words might have been poor. My apologies, I tend to be very blunt.

However, as I stated : You're repurposing existing buttons on the controller to help you INCREASE your stair skating SPEED. I don't believe it should be allowed.

I compared the time you take with your technique to go up the long stairs in the crypt with the one RawDerps (which is known in this community as being insanely quick at stair skating) take to go up the same flight of stairs.

Yours : 4 seconds 33 milliseconds RawDerps : 4 seconds 49 milliseconds Mine : 4 seconds 751 milliseconds (BibleThump)

I could never dream of achieving such a speed by "naturally" mashing the square button. And I'm imagining, neither can you, otherwise you wouldn't have "invented" this technique.

But, as I said, maybe the other mods will disagree with me.

RawDerps vinden dit leuk

I'm at my computer now, so I'll take this opportunity to respond with a little more detail.

Firstly, there is nothing to apologize for. I didn't take any offense to either of your posts.

I disagree with the criteria that you're using to determine legitimacy, granted that I'm speaking from the tenuous position of not even being a prominent member of this community, let alone a moderator. Repurposing controls to do things better/faster than you otherwise could is one of the fundamentals of competitive gaming on the PC.

You're absolutely right when you assume that I can't stair skate as quickly as RawDerps by mashing the run button, but I don't accept that because I'm using this technique to my own benefit, my runs should therefore be considered illegitimate. By the same logic, a player who runs the game using the keyboard should be disallowed from rebinding another key in order to enhance/aid their ability to stair skate, or do anything else for that matter. As CursedToast pointed out, I'm still manually issuing all of the inputs required to perform stair skating at this speed. It just so happens that the analogue stick, in my opinion, is a more suitable control to be used for this purpose because it can register multiple inputs from a single movement.

Lastly, I'm wondering if you have fully considered the implications of ruling to disallow the repurposing of buttons. How could you as a moderator possibly verify that the runner hasn't repurposed any controls? If it wasn't for my willingness to share (both on-stream and in this thread), you may never have known that I was using this goofy technique in the first place, and I would have soon been crowned the new stair skating champion. By what measure would you gauge the foul play of would-be button rebinders?

Ultimately, I'll happily accept the final decision of the moderators and will continue to speedrun the game either way. Hopefully I've provided some decent arguments in support of allowing this technique to be used and the repurposing of controls in general.

Questions of legitimacy aside - those measurements that you recorded are impressive. I'll do some focused testing and see just how quickly I can traverse the stairway down to the crypt. I will report back with the results.

For now, a demo of the skate down to the altar:

What bothers me is the fact that you can achieve insanely quick speed at stair skating by repurposing the use of the right stick. I don't quite understand why, because clearly, you can't wiggle the stick as quickly as you can mash a button (it's just physically impossible! XP), but somehow, the modification you do with the use of the third party software suddenly make you stair skate at RawDerps' speed... If, for example, by doing so, you stair skate was the same speed as it is when you mash the square button, I probably wouldn't be so adamant about the whole affair. It's the fact you're enhancing your performance tremendously by clearly modifying how the buttons were supposed to function in the first place.

I was under the impression that speedrunning was about how a human being was able to beat a game as quickly as possible without the aid of an external third party software and how it was meant to be played in the first place. Now, clearly, people use glitches in speedruns all the time, and this wasn't how the game was intended to be played, but at least a glitch is within the game itself. Using InputMapper to repurpose square into your right stick and making this input much quicker than naturally mashing the square button isn't "within the game itself". But it's not like I'm myself some expert on speedrunning because I didn't even know it existed only 9 months ago.

Let me tell you, I wished you could just repurpose the buttons the way you want. Maybe I'm a bit zealous, but I actually went through the trouble of learning to quick-shoot with L2/R2 on PC when I had been doing it with L1/R1 for months on PS4. Quick-shooting with R2 is a lot harder than R1 for some reason (I hate the bumper buttons on the PS4 controller, who had this retarded idea of making them stick out so much should be shot...) I was under the impression I wasn't supposed to repurpose the buttons the way I wanted other than what was offered within the game, so I just learned it the hard way...

At the end of the day though, stair skating very quickly can only get you so far. Your execution and your lines will matter a lot more than the speed at which you can mash square on the limited amount of stairs within the game. Still, even if it only ends up saving you 10 seconds on an entire run, the whole thing just feels illegitimate to me as I explained why.

"Lastly, I'm wondering if you have fully considered the implications of ruling to disallow the repurposing of buttons. How could you as a moderator possibly verify that the runner hasn't repurposed any controls? If it wasn't for my willingness to share (both on-stream and in this thread), you may never have known that I was using this goofy technique in the first place, and I would have soon been crowned the new stair skating champion."

Haha, I knew you'd bring that argument, I was waiting for it! XD You're right, we have zero way of verifying if people are repurposing buttons, cheating or whatever. For all I know, everybody on the leaderboards are actually making use of turbo controllers, or auto-shooting or whatever. We have zero way of finding out, except if the whole run looks really bogus and then we can just decide to deny the submission. But then again, we have no way of proving the person is actually cheating. At the end of the day, we just trust runners' good faith. And you are definitely being penalized for being honest. It's a big ironic and unfair for you. But unfortunately, that's just how it is.

Then again, maybe the other mods will find your whole technique perfectly legitimate and you'll be able to keep using it no problem. That's just my point of view.

The way it works, Lileya, is that the thumb stick movement is registered as pressed and depressed with a single movement of the analog stick. The dead zone is manipulated in InputMapper to register the sensitivity of when it's considered "moved" and "released" (dead zone). Each controller is different and needs to be adjusted as such... I doubt Zeroth's settings will work for everyone.

You're both proving really valid points. On one hand yeah, it's perfectly acceptable with any other PC game to remap. On the other hand, it's third party software to do it.

I'm sure there's other games where third party maps/remaps are acceptable though (though maybe not with a ... "function" similar to stair skating).

Isn't it allowed in the PC versions of other Resident Evil games to re-map keyboard keys to controllers with third party software? I know it's that way for the PC ports of Silent Hill. Same thing applies... you could say it's cheating to map keys to a controller because a controller is more comfortable (subjective, just like Z's technique) thus giving an edge... an extreme example but it's for the sake of clarity of my point.

I think the technique is quite brilliant, honestly and could help other people and change the meta. It wouldn't be all about the elitist button mashing (still requiring skill with flicking the stick though) and focus more on precision and routing which is what I love most about running the game. I still think it's a goofy and uncomfortable technique personaly, but if it allows others to jump in and enjoy the game then I'm for it.

Bawkbasoup has flat out told me stair skating is what's keeping him from joining the fun, for example.

I'll try to get some more mods in this thread if I run into them for some more thoughts/input.

PS: Lileya, I had no idea that triple shots are harder with L2. I sorta want to try it now. The bumper took me quite a bit of time to adjust on the PS4 controller and I'm so used to using the L1/R1 buttons from the old RE games it threw me off quite a bit.

I didn't even consider swapping the bumpers and triggers around for easier quickshots. That is an excellent idea.

"At the end of the day, we just trust runners' good faith. And you are definitely being penalized for being honest. It's a big ironic and unfair for you. But unfortunately, that's just how it is."

Let's hope that the other moderators weigh in on this topic sometime soon in that case. I don't feel as if I can continue running until this is settled without running the risk of having my times pulled from the leaderboards at a later date, should you guys decide to ban remapping. In which case I'll need to set up a controller camera in the event that I ever become half decent at skating using the run button. : p

xxshadowxbossxx 9 years ago

"In which case I'll need to set up a controller camera in the event that I ever become half decent at skating using the run button. : p"

Have them pay for it ;)

ok i want to pitch in on this. ok yes it can be helpful to those that cant "skate" as fast or as effectively as other runners. but however in a way it could benefit all runners on the pc side but then again it would need alot of thorough testing. and if "all parties" find that it could be used then there will possibly be a discussion about maybe creating another "category" lets call this category "alternative" and any run done by this new method would be place in that table however to prove that they are using this new method i would obviously recommend that all runs should provide an input display to see that you are using the right analogue. but overall if the tests prove that it is a consistent and effective way of stair skating then there would be a discussion between all pc runners to express their views on it but i would also like to add i can entirely see where lileya is coming from and i respect what lileyas views are but to avoid any arguments it would need to be discussed in a professional manner and all views taken into account with respect. however just lets see what everyones views are what the tests provide and oveerall allow it to be a fair discussion.

Test Video:

Crypt stairway ascent tests (LiveSplit times):

03:24.86 - 03:28.83 3.97
03:40.35 - 03:44.20 3.85
03:51.73 - 03:55.48 3.75
04:09.05 - 04:12:97 3.92
05:07.13 - 05:10.78 3.65
05:27.61 - 05:31.86 4.25
07:34.86 - 07:38.53 3.67
07:51.16 - 07:54.75 3.59
08:05.96 - 08:09.61 3.65
08:29.08 - 08:33.11 4.03
09:41.08 - 09:45.20 4.12
10:32.11 - 10:35.96 3.85
10:53.54 - 10:57.17 3.63
11:21.25 - 11:25.21 3.96
11:39.81 - 11:43.60 3.79

Quickest: Test #8 - 3.59 seconds

@xxshadowxbossxx:

I think the discussion hinges more around determining the legitimacy of control remapping within the context of the existing categories, rather than determining whether control remapping warrants the creation of new categories or branching the existing categories in order to segment the runners who want to take advantage of remapping and those who do not. Granted only a single moderator has shared their thoughts on the matter so far. The general consensus of the moderators may turn out to be that segmentation is a viable solution, though I would be extremely surprised by that outcome.

Let us suppose that segmentation is a viable option and place it adjacent to the two obvious ones: A. Permit control remapping in all categories. B. Prohibit control remapping in all categories. C. Segment all categories (remapping permitted/remapping prohibited).

For options B and C, you have the whopping problem of verification to solve. As it stands there would be no reliable and logistically feasible way of verifying whether a given runner had remapped their controller. Intuitively, requiring a controller input display (such as the one I use in my streams), as you suggested, seems like a possible solution. But in response I should point out that controller display applications do not necessarily capture the physical inputs that are issued on the device. These applications typically capture the converted/remapped inputs produced by programs like InputMapper, and this in itself presents an opportunity for people to game the system.

I submit that the least problematic of the three options is option A, where the problems presented stem merely from our own subjective opinions of how we each individually believe the game should be played. I therefore urge the moderators to permit control remapping across the board and leave the decision in the hands of the runner, just as we surely would if we were discussing any other technique, tactic or strategy that plainly does not transgress into the realms of cheating.

There's not gonna be creation of new categories. I'm pretty sure I talk for all the mods here.

My problem with "your" remapping isn't that it's remapping per se, but rather that (if I understand your post and CursedToast's properly) in one single motion of your stick from top to bottom, the game registers 3 inputs : press X, unpress X then press X. I guess if you do it continuously, it's more 2 inputs rather than 3. So you're actually doing 2 inputs for the price of one! :P

So it's not just your "usual" remapping. You didn't simply remapped X to Y, or B to A, which I personally wouldn't give a crap if you did. It's the fact this specific remapping allow you to input things quicker.

So I guess if this is allowed, any speedrunner on the PC version will have to use your technique because it's pretty obvious this would be the best way to stair skate the quickest way possible (judging by your latest results where you actual stair skate quicker than RawDerps!)

Anyway, I made my point along time ago, I should stop getting involved. (I can't help iiiiiiit, I love a good argument! ;;)

I wish the other mods would join the discussion already. I tried bringing one of the mod into it, but apparently, he didn't feel like getting involved. (Yes, I'm talking about you, Sshplur! :P)

Yes, the motion up is X, then when the analog hits the center (dead zone) it's depressed, then a second motion down is X being pressed again. I guess when you think about it, it's no different than pressing and releasing in that regard.

Give it a try and see if it even feels natural to you. I get why it's faster for him, technically, but I honestly don't see the point about arguing over milliseconds. There's honestly plenty of other shit that makes this game more interesting to me in the first place (precision and execution, hell you could even say RNG) that I'm not worried about ¤milliseconds¤ so it doesn't bother me. If the game was so god damn optimized and kept count of milliseconds then I think it would matter more.

And again, just to reiterate, it opens the doors for more people being willing to participate. Every time I pop into Bawkba's stream I razz him about joining the fun. I even mentioned this thread to him and it caught his interest. XD

I do know Pessimism doesn't have an issue with it, but he also sees your argument as well.

I do wish other mods would pipe in about it though so this has some closure.

Cosmicabuse 9 years ago

Ahoy boys. Just pitchin' in with what I think is the situation.

First of all, for me, that's a macro. You put multiple inputs on 1 keystroke (controller keystroke here, but that'd be the exact same for someone playing on a keyboard). Every macro should be banned, or else... you know, vicious circle. You allow one macro, you instantly get problems if you have to deny other macros.

The thing is, it's just a few milliseconds. Personally I wouldn't really care if that's allowed since getting a good time doesn't really depend that much on amazing stair skating (just needs to be good, and you really need less than 10 inputs per second to get a good performance). I'd like to point out that you can learn how to mash; it's not that hard, it takes practice and good usage of your arm's muscles.

If I have to say Yes or No on this topic, I'd say no. Macros of any kind shouldn't be allowed (of course, in order to compete on the leaderboards).

crazyboynph 9 years ago

Since day one, I stated my opinions on these same problems and no one gave a damn. It's up to the website and verifiers to implement specific criteria for each speed run.

If you don't want these topics, ban stair skating. It's simple.

We need specific criteria like: 60Hz or 144Hz, max graphics, vsync on or off, music on or off, skins (are you serious??), shotgun cancelling, skating, etc. 60 or 30 fps doesn't tell us anything.

It's a jungle out there. I feel no one cares. This site will become less legitimate over time unless action is taken.

THE GAME MUST BE RAN AT VANILLA!!!

When I read mods say speed runs are valid with different skins, I question the legitimacy of this website.

Additionally, there is no way to prevent cheating, you can only minimize it. People cheat in professional sports and game competitions.

You may even want to consider having a camera focused on the players gamepad for specific games.