in this video you can see some strats for avoid bad devil deal or deal with krampus. i want ask community. is it allowed or no? This is can save your run in some characters and get good deal on next floor. but you have to do some time investment for making save point in boss fight every time. Also big time investment if you "crush" game. have to kill boss again. Also you don't have blue heart protection for next floor.
I dont have any troubles with this strat at all, but...closing the game...that is bad thing for me...
But if the other people think is allowed for vanilla speedruns i dont have any problem, its quite risky to spend all time to kill again the boss to get another shitty DD on next floor, or krampus...
It seems alright to do but just with the RNG that you need at this point I think this might waste too much time and might not be worth the time... If you don't get b2 dd it might be already too bad...
I wouldn't think using an outside tool (task manager) to affect the game should be allowed. If it's not something you can produce using just the game then that doesn't seem valid to me.
Also does anyone know if actually closing the game client in the middle of a run is valid in speedruns of any other game because I honestly don't know and would be curious if it is.
Also I agree with Cyber about it likely not being worth since no B2 DD is already really bad if you're trying to get really good times, but it could help with consistency I guess if it were valid.
There is several games that close the game on occasion to do stuff. It is mostly a console thing and is called save and quit. Like in some rpg games if you save and quit then continue it warps you back to a default location for example the start of a dungeon. These games usually have any% with s+q and without. So yeah just closing and opening the game in a normal speedrun should be totally fine.
This is disgusting and I wouldn't be surprised if some crooked members of this community were to advocate it for their own political gains.
I don't think this should be a thing. This is not normally closing the game, it's crashing it with external tools to avoid the normal auto save feature, this has to be kept in mind when comparing it to other games doing similar things that then turn out to not be similar at all.
As an example, I just learnt about this because I saw Dea1h using it in a run. Here is the situation:
He had an Emperor and a Broken Remote+Red Candle. He used the Emperor on a lost curse cathedral, then accidentally teleported out. He then undid the mistake by forcing the game crash, reverting back to the cathedral and using the emperor again. Yes, it costs time compared to doing it correctly in the first place, but in this example, it just seems to cheat the in game rules to undo a mistake and get away with it, thereby lowering the skill ceiling.
The run he used this on is now 1:09 after 6 chars, potentially a 7 char WR and likely a PB, and has this strat in it that we didn't agree upon. That's...unfortunate, to put it mildly. Edit: not a 7, but heavily on pace for 11.
I'm obviously just a watcher, not a runner, but I completely agree that the trick shouldn't be considered valid because it uses an external program. I'm not a huge fan of stealing deals with co-op babies or using Save + Quit, but those are at least tricks built into the game.
If this is allowed, then what's to stop a runner from going into a boss with one heart and crashing the game just before they're about to die? And to take it a step further, if Task Manager is allowed, then why aren't other programs allowed?
This "strategy" was now used in the new 11 char WR by Dea1h and we need to have a discussion if that invalidates the run. I think it does. I described how he used it above. Copying it:
As an example, I just learnt about this because I saw Dea1h using it in a run. Here is the situation:
He had an Emperor and a Broken Remote+Red Candle. He used the Emperor on a lost curse cathedral, then accidentally teleported out. He then undid the mistake by forcing the game crash, reverting back to the cathedral and using the emperor again. Yes, it costs time compared to doing it correctly in the first place, but in this example, it just seems to cheat the in game rules to undo a mistake and get away with it, thereby lowering the skill ceiling. This is also quite obviously way different to the proposed strategy in the initial video of this thread.
Link to the moment: watch from here until 5h01m30s or something like that.
That's the perfect of example of why this needs to be banned- if something goes wrong, you pay the price and either move on with the run or reset. Nobody's going to argue against Dea1h being an awesome runner, but that's simply correcting his own error using an external application.
There are plenty of other ways to exploit this, by the way, besides my "facing a boss with one heart" example above.
- Got Epic in the Chest? Escape and continue at the start of the floor, and if you hit a dead end with double Fistula/double Teratoma, POOF! Go the other way, losing only 20 seconds instead of 90.
- Not confident in your ability to complete the black market glitch, and you've only got two bombs? You've got as many chances as you want!
- Trying to complete Guppy? Check the red chests in a challenge room without having to fight it if the third piece isn't there!
The game is about skill and RNG, and this glitch can, in certain cases, severely reduce the need for both. I could theoretically see its application in a seeded racing format, but that's about it.
Personally I don't think end-tasking the game should be allowed.
I'd like to hear from some more runners about what they think.
i don't care about this wr, but this is stupid. i posted tread about using it 6 days ago. Nobody cares. And when i showed how it's good. they saying this is cheating. Good very good.
So every time then i imagine something crazy strategy. i should waste 1 wr pace run. to attract attentional for it?
You didn't post using this 6 days ago at all, you posted using the same idea to reset devil deal outcomes, not correcting mistakes like cheating death (which is another application of this that wasn't used here though) or undoing what happened here, a major execution mistake that would have possibly costed a run and has no impact instead. Not everyone checks this forum regularly, like I said, I only learnt about this today, watching your stream, which happened to be this run, and I posted about it here already before the run was finished and turned out to be a WR.
You asked for the opinion of people, which was mixed already on that way less significant usage of this glitch/exploit/strategy/whatever. You still decided to use it in a run anyway without having a real answer to the question in a way more impactful and way more sketchy way. Sorry, that's on you.
I very much appreciate asking about this in advance, don't get me wrong, but if that is then ignored and done anyway, what's the point really?
To add to what kicking said, there are way more examples of using this exploit. Some greatly reduce skill and RNG, some are maybe even somewhat interesting. You can turn an emperor into a compass by using it at the start of a floor, seeing where the boss room is, crashing the game, knowing the boss room location and keeping the emperor card. A bit like an external glowing hourglass with a sun card (which this would also work with). Spending all your hearts on sac rooms hoping for angel room carry and undoing it when it didn't pay out. The possibilities are endless, but in the end, it comes down to undoing something that's not intended to be undone. This is pretty much using a savestate in a speedrun. That's just ridiculous. For any application, the time loss is something to account for, but all those examples and more are a possible result of this.
As a general final note, I would very much appreciate it if new strategies in this game where for once again about actual gameplay and not about bending the rules and trying to get away with as much as possible.
Aren't there some console games where they restart the console to go to a certain place faster? I don't think any glitch should be considered a MUST ban, but rather the runners of the game should vote/decide whether they want to run the game with those glitches or not. Some people agree with the glitches, some do not.
IMO the simplest solution is 2 categories, one with all glitches allowed and the other one without(or with specific glitches the majority of the community wants to be allowed?).
If you guys don't want 2 categories for whatever reason, I would propose a vote where anyone that has a run submitted can vote on allowing each one of the glitches.
As a meme note, we use explorer to copy paste the save files and notepad to edit the config for mouse usage with epic fetus and graphic settings :^).
I'd say this isn't allowed as well, but I told this to Dea1h when he asked me about it earlier. Didn't realize there was a thread about it.
Dea1h, I get your frustration for feeling like you wasted you wasted your time if the consensus is that using task manager to end task the game isn't allowed. In response to your "Nobody cares" comment though, I did post my concerns with it 6 days ago as well but nobody really addressed my concern about using an outside tool to enable it. Drunkenshoe did answer my question about other games actually using console shut offs though which was nice of him and helpful insight. The issue with it being an outside tool was never discussed any further though.
I don't think that many people actually check these forums on a regular basis (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), so it's sort of understandable that the thread wasn't really noticed until people brought attention to it after seeing you use it on a run. I'd say that using something that you think might not be allowed but haven't had any confirmation/consensus on the matter is a risk I guess? If you want to avoid that risk then you'd have to get more of the community together to discuss things somehow. I'm always open to PMs via Twitch or Discord so if you want you can always contact me there to discuss things too.
And my fault for making myself more clear. Language barriers are hard sometimes. Still working on my Russian :)
