Thanks friend!

yeah no teleport spell for sure. I feel like it's probably fine if you get hit by a tele-mage since you're not really exploiting it (and even if you do you don't get much out of it) but I'm open to having my mind changed.

I would like to put in a +1 for teleport-less as a category. It's a much more interesting speedrun IMO. This is in no way suggesting we do away with any of the current categories however.

My opinion is no because it's not in the spirit of speedrunning. But it's just one opinion.

HeyGuys.

I find these kinds of conversations really interesting, and my default position is always game-mechanics are innocent until proven guilty, and outside mods are guilty until proven innocent.

That said, overturning any of these default positions requires community consensus. It seems like people are fine with item trackers (which are actually crazy super useful in speedrunning) and the stats mod thing. And people have no problem with running on someone else's save file.

So if it gets down to opinions, then it becomes what is right for the community. As some of you might know, I used to speedrun Zelda 2, the any% category is under 20 minutes. It is the fastest way to beat the game, but people wanted to actually run most of the game, so they made a different category (All-Keys 100%) which is what everyone pretty much runs now. So the general rule is, vanilla stuff is good to go, unless it kinda ruins speedrunning.

IMO, baby-co-op doesn't ruin speedrunning, it is part of the speedrunner's arms-race. Overflow seems fine too, though I can see more of an argument to have that banned (again, if it breaks the spirit of the speedrun, like the glitches in Zelda 2 or the 0:00 pokemon speedrun). I believe that modding any gamefile to be read-only is really weird because it's totally altering the way the game plays and I am personally opposed to it.

One thing to remember though, is that these kinds of conversations are nothing but good for the community!

Yes. That is 100% what I have been saying this entire time.

Either wipe it all, or don't wipe at all. Just don't pick and choose.

Not to be confrontational, but isn't it redundant to say that all new submissions must be on the latest version and also state that : "Major glitches from past patches like Quickswapping & Table Tech glitches are banned."

I also think it is worth looking at those who have dealt with this in the past:

https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/43u4al/how_to_deal_with_an_updated_game/

I feel like I am talking in circles. I don't know what to say. Firstly, my table tech run that has been removed would've been in 3rd place on the 4 character boards, it was hardly a glitch that made my run out of reach (like the quickswapping bullet). AGAIN, I know that it should be removed, but because it isn't the current version of the game. My run isn't less legit because I used a glitch that is now not in the game. My run is not legit because it was in a different version of the game, that played differently. That has been my point all along.

Please just try and understand where I am coming from here. You define "major glitches" after the fact. You even admit that you didn't know the table tech thing was a glitch when you made the rules. That's my point. You are deciding what is and what isn't a major glitch. Whether you use the word glitch or feature the different versions are DIFFERENT. This is a problem. It now becomes a matter of "consulting the community" on whether certain changes in the game should be banned or not.

I mean, I wasn't consulted, and I thought I was part of the community.

You shouldn't have a ban by committee style leaderboard. Either it is in the game, or it isn't. This isn't a long term solution, and it ends up being more work for the moderator group anyways.

Also, wall of text anger isn't really helping the conversation, and it is unbecoming of a moderator. I don't believe that type of vitriol should be spread by a moderator, if you think someone is being distasteful, then moderate.

I also just want to point out to @Skuttie, that it is important to not just focus on the top of the leaderboard. In some very deep leaderboards some people might be trying to just get into the top 10 or something, and if the person sitting in 10th had an advantage because they got that time on an old version, I'm sure any runner would be sad about that.

As I have been suggesting. Either remove everything that isn't current patch, or remove nothing. If possible, tag "old version" runs so that people know. OR if there is a way to archive previous patches. That is what to do. Then you don't need to include any rules. You can remove the part about "major glitches" and can just put, leaderboards will be archived when new patches come out.

The current way it is written is not good. It is subjective and open to interpretation.

I'm not certain why I'm seeming hostile...I'm just voicing an opinion. And whether you made the rules or not, if you are running the boards, and I feel like the rules should be changed, then I think it is worth bringing it up to you. Sorry that you both feel bad about my opinion, but I think it is a legitimate concern. While I don't quite share the hostility as Wilarseny, I 100% agree with him in terms of rule changes.

I'm Canadian, so I'm impressed that you feel like I'm being rude. That's not my usual state of being. I don't mean any harm by what I'm saying. I just feel strongly on the issue. If I hurt your feelings in any ways I'm sorry.

I know what the rules said. I have a problem with them is what I'm saying, when you are interpreting the word "major" in "all runs utilizing major glitches will be removed"

Again, this is an arbitrary distinction. Totally up to interpretation, and someone could get screwed by it.

"The whole concept of mainly removing world records that utilized pre-patch glitches is simply because that would make it harder to get the FASTEST time simply because you're playing on a up-to-date version, which doesn't sound right to me." Is what I meant by ONLY WR counts. If it is the only thing you are looking at for whether it should be removed or not.

Going back and judging which run has a pre-patch glitch is a hell of a lot of work. Which is why an all or nothing solution required. Just worrying about WR is 100% arbitrary. Why does only WR count. What if I have 3rd place and the 2nd place used the previous patch? You need hard-lined rules on leaderboards IMO.

I guess we both posted at the exact same time. My opinions are in the other thread. Though I didn't talk about the amount of categories. I feel like it's fine.

Hi everyone,

So I think there is an issue with the way runs are kept/removed from the leaderboards. Obviously I have some skin in the game because my WR was removed for using the table tech glitch. But, I am told that my use of that glitch was pointed out by the current WR holder. Obviously, when it comes to a leaderboard like this, objectivity is key.

Off the bat, I have no problem with my run being disqualified for using a glitch that was removed. At the time, it was a perfectly legitimate way to play the game but due to it being removed and considered a "major change" my run was invalidated. Glitches are an enormous part of speedrunning, so not utilizing glitches is strange in that regard. I feel like it is hard to classify "major change". Where do you draw the line? Seems arbitrary. I feel like either runs should be tagged as "old version" or ALL old version runs should be eliminated. For instance, was there a mimic? Well "Mimics no longer teleport when re-entering their room, and can now follow you out of reward rooms" is a big deal. You can save time pulling them out of the rooms towards where you need to go. Even something as small as "Homing bullets caught by the Red Wizard now behave correctly" could impact the time.

I think it is an all or none situation. I realize this impacts the speedrunning community because having your run removed doesn't exactly feel good, but the game is in active development, so we are at a bit of an impasse, and I don't think subjectively deciding what constitutes a major glitch is the right way to go about it.

Here is a handy website with info about each of the items in the game: https://simonnguyen.github.io/

Yeah. Sad to see it go only in the effort I put into my times. Happy because my wrist is wrecked. Obviously the times on there should probably not count.

So since I was the first to complete 4 character I'll just put how I timed it. I don't know if that's what will stick, but it is what I did.

I used livesplit and started the timer the moment I took control of the first character dropping into the gungeon. Personally, I split each character the moment I shot myself after killing the dragun. I stopped the timer the moment I shot myself with my 4th character.

I opted to not use safe/quit after killing the dragun, but instead speeding through the credits, and pressing ESC on the run stats screen that pops up in the ammonomicon. Then selecting the next character and running and jumping back into the gungeon.

It felt the least exploity to me.