Court is now in session.

Ok guys, as you might have seen on the other thread, I found a glitch [Event Storage Warp] a few days ago that allows us to warp from a Walled City visit to the other (getting the spellstone and getting the krazoa spirit, let's call them Walled City 1 and 2 respectively), here's a video of the glitch in question (pay close attention to the files name, data and IGT) :

Here's how it works: you need two files, one of them is your run file (for discussion purposes, let's expose the speedrun case) and a setup file (this one will be made before the run starts, and it needs to be on the second visit to Walled City). You start your run on your clean file, and the moment you get to Walled City 1, you save, then you'll get to the moonstone area using the early moonstone trick, store the location and simply quit. At this point, you load the setup file and void out in the moon temple using the waterfall jump (this is done in order to avoid overwritting the location previously stored). When Fox respawns, he'll be in the moon stone room, then you save & quit. In the files screen, the setup file becomes the new run file, in the sense that ALL the data from the run file OVERWRITES the setup data completely, that means the setup file no longer exists, so no items, story progress and such remain there, and are replaced with the run file's. Upon loading this file, the location will still be Walled City 1 BUT with elements from Walled City 2, meaning we can use that to do a sequence break, and go to the last part of the game, skipping everything from getting the 3rd spellstone up until getting the 5th Krazoa spirit. Please bear in mind that NO DATA TRANSFER occurs from setup file to run file, the method just serves the purpose of fooling the game into swapping certain elements between the two walled city visits.

Another version of this glitch can be done in the opposite order, resulting in skipping pretty much the entire game, there's a video here:

In this method, your setup file is on walled city 2 after getting and placing the stones with no glitches involved. Your run starts from a clean file and you Save & Quit once Krystal reaches Krazoa Palace. You then load the setup file, get to the moon stone room, store the location and quit. Then you load the run file and void out as Krystal. If done correctly, you'll respawn as Fox in the moon stone room. You leave the area and just proceed to beat the game. This method works differently because, like I said earlier, is done the opposite way, since you void out in the run file, the setup file's data overwrites the run's data completely, so it becomes a copy of the setup file instead of the other way around, and not only that, basically you just transfer game progress whereas in the first method you don't, you just "swap" locations.

The reason this is brought up is to discuss what to label the any% category now. Not too many are ok on the idea of using the second method to define any%, since the run data pretty much dies in the middle of the run, whereas in the first method, the run data stays intact, only locations vary; and like that, others are still iffy on the idea that a setup file with advanced game progress is required to fool the game. Here are the options:

1.- Use the glitch with first method and label it any%, and renaming the old any% into "any% no ESW [Event Storage Warp]" or some other name.

2.- Keep the current any% as it is, and use the glitch with first method for a separate any% category like "any% ESW" or some other name.

3.- Use the second method instead for any% or any% ESW

4.- Use the second method for another miscellaneous category, like "Krystal Corruption" or some other name.

5.- Just avoid using this glitch entirely and preserve the status quo.

So let's discuss this now. Hopefully, it won't take 3 or more years to come to an agreement.

A last comment: if you need comparisons from other communities/games, there's the BK community that plays on a previously setup file to transfer moves to the new run file, this is done in every category, but prior to the run however. Banjo Tooie has a Delayed Cutscene warp, which lets you choose an event in the game menu (previously unlocked of course) to warp to the last boss and beat the game, this became the new any% but since it made the run a bit boring, old any% was kept under another name (any% no DCW). In Skyward Sword, you can transfer data from a beaten file to a new one, granting you all items needed to beat the game, but since it grants you pretty much everything from a previously beaten file, it was called glitched any%, so is not the main category.

I hope I made everything clear.

I know everyone already knows my stance on this, but I will put it here just because.

My solution is to define Star Fox Adventures as follows: "You must begin the run on a new file in slot 1. Time begins upon selecting "play game" on the new file in slot 1. There are no restrictions for your files in slots 2 & 3. You are NOT allowed to break the in-game timer in any way. The run ends upon killing Andross, timing ends when the final blow is dealt and the death cutscene begins." This set of rules would allow ESW, but not allow RESW as it breaks your in-game time. Further more, I believe the category names should be as follows: Any% under the new rule-set will use ESW, and the current route would be Any% no ESW. "Krystal Corruption" should be a miscellaneous category because RESW breaks the in game timer and thus would break the defined ruleset.

Just as a note, we already have two confirmed completions of Krystal Corruption so you know it's gonna be a dank meme. It just needs a slot on the leaderboard.

Remember the setup file gets transformed in your run file, so you can't finish the run on slot 1, you begin on slot 1, but end it on whichever slot you originally had the setup file in. So basically your solution has any% be beaten from a new file and not break the IGT, no progress/data transfer from setup file. Run needs to be ended with original file's data and progress.

Just pointing that bit out before people get confused. This glitch seems to confuse a lot of people for some reason.

Tested and Fixed. All I have to do to the previous ruleset is just remove the idea that the run needs to be finished in slot 1

Alright so we have decided to make it Any% (which includes ESW) Any% No ESW and Krystal Corruption as a misc. category, with "we" I mean Jub, Celestial, Narbe and me, it's most fair if the active runners and the person who found the glitch are the ones to decide what it's gonna be instead of some people joining that want to decide what it's gonna be called or w/e that don't run the game or haven't ran in a very long time just because they want to be the special snowflakes and just need to be part of it which will result into stupid discussions even though there isn't a point since they'll probably still never run the game anyways.

Something that I'd like to point out is that DCW in Tooie also works with a cutscene watched on another file. For instance, in this video, the person uses a cutscene of when you enter a room instead of using the minigame replay (warping directly to the minigame softlocks the game if I recall correctly).

This method of storing a cutscene is allowed, though never used due to the fact that the mini game replay already provides enough useful cutscenes to warp almost anywhere in the game.

Btw, does anyone know how much time that saves ?

We know this sort of glitch is in BK or BT and using it in Any% in SFA saves like more than an hour

@Keanu the point of the thread wasn't to have you claim no one else mattered in the discussion, it was to put the discussion in an open forum with all the information available instead of it being a closed discussion cliche. Just because people. haven't ran the game in a long time doesn't mean their points aren't relevant, that's not how a community leaderboard discussion works. Most of the time new finds bring new people together and older runners back into the game. Be mindful of that.

As for my input on it, I don't mind Krystal corruption being a Misc. category, that's kinda what misc categories are for. Most seem to agree on making 2 categories out of this, one that is Any% and the other which is the current any%, which did not use ESW.

I also agree on this needing to not take 3 years like defining 100%. Most of the groundwork seems to be in place, just need to wait for others opinions, but the current direction seems to be near unanimous agreement.

Logically, what everyone agrees on makes the most sense. We still need to keep the OG category since it contains the full game whereas the new glitch takes away more than it gives. It doesn't add anything new except DIME. Therefore, spellstone 1 becomes irrelevant.

The only thing I would be bugged about was if the new any% became the main category. That would be fucking stupid.

By that logic, Jub, OoT's any% shouldn't be main category or should be a misc one, or not exist at all? lol

I agree with Narbe here, having any% with a new glitch as misc is just stupid, an any% run should always be the main category, we could even call them "Any%" and "Any% ESW" if we have to, it should be a main category, and the point of any% is to beat the game as fast as possible anyways so making that a misc is just dumb.

The problem here is the act of going into another file during the run. If the setup file was not gone into, I highly doubt anyone would have issues here, but going into another file to trick the game for the run file, I mean the stuff you are doing isn't done in the run file and it's affecting the run.

Also I do agree, the point of any% is to beat the game as fast as possible, but what's the point if you skip stuff outside the scope of the original run file?

This is less clear than I initially thought. I wouldn't support designating ESW or RESW as vanilla any% -- I think it'd be equivalent to doing so for an NG+ category. Even if it's not "formally" NG+, it's still essentially the same thing -- using a previously played file to achieve an otherwise unobtainable effect on the run file. For "standard" any%, the setup file playtime should count towards the time. Separate categories for each seem like the way to go to me, since it really is pretty cool and definitely seems worth competing in. I just don't feel it's correct to call times achieved with either the any% record, unless the combined playtime including setup and run files is lower.

Alright i get that, but it doesn't have to be misc, that just sounds silly to me, and Z_LAMP, since the setup file will become the run file the in game time will be around 3 hours and i did say we could have it as separate category since that was the idea anyways, i can see Krystal Corruption as misc of course but making the any% with ESW as misc just seems silly to me, it can always just be Any% ESW next to normal any% but that's just me i guess

I feel like I put examples of other games in the main post and detailed explanation of data transfer for nothing. So I'm not gonna say anything else in the matter, I've said enough there and all these past days, and everything falls in deaf ears with the same comeback no matter what new explanation I give.

I'm assuming at this point most people want this out? I honestly don't want this to take that long, is not even necessary to sit here for days and weeks to decide this. I only see two people here ok with this in and one person from the community I used as reference explaining how my example can be used with other file and is still ok for them.

Never said misc -- I'd make both of them separate, specific, normal categories if it were me, something like what Okami does for runs that use the KT glitch. I guess you could also argue that the principle of the thing is the same for ESW and RESW and that both fall into the same category, but that seems like foolish consistency to me. I do think the real-life playtime required to achieve ESW/RESW needs to be taken into account somehow, though. There are many, many situations where you can manipulate game time in ways that don't match the actual set of actions you took, and I don't think even considering game time is productive. For example there's a glitch almost exactly like RESW in Sly Cooper -- you can put a brand new file with 0:00 IGT in one of the levels near the end of the game (or any level you like, actually). That didn't even end up being a category, let alone any%.

You didn't say misc but like everyone else does, we can just put it on the main ones next to Any% and call it Any% ESW and then it's just all fine if you ask me, why have such a big discussion about this, it's just a new exploit found in the game and people wanted it to be shorter anyways and now it's shorter and people still aren't happy just because it uses a setup file, it doesn't have to be the main any% but just put it next to any% as any% ESW

So just from talking with everyone and clarifying stuff, I think I've come to the following conclusions on how people believe this should be handled:

1. Any% will remain the same on the leaderboard, however we will have to add a new rule that restricts play off of other files.
2. Any% ESW sounds like the name for the new category as it will explicitly ban Reverse ESW (otherwise what's the point of the run)
3. Krystal Corruption will be a misc category as it uses Reverse ESW

There's been a lot of miscommunication on how things should be handled (most of it is just the wording for the new category and how it will affect the wording of current any%......my mistake), the general agreement is people want to run this, so logically it should have a place here.

If I missed anything let me know otherwise we'll start to make changes to the board soon to accommodate this find.

An any% main category with a 18 min wr run would attract more new runners to the game Kappa