Hello Metroid runners, I would like to discuss the merit of deathwarps being or not being allowed in a run.
This is a bit of a mix between is Up + A a real category or something of a sub category because its a developer code. Just stating my opinion on this here and am curious what everyone else has to think.
I can't think of a reason to disallow deathwarps on any grounds. It both makes the game faster and is completely doable on one controller and no code or anything else that needs to happen. Deathless is more of a challenge run then a full speedrun in this case since it is not taking advantage of a prime time save, minutes worth of time saves. To me that is an arbitrary rule to make a category longer for no real reason. I know there are some strong feelings against deathwarping and I am curious as to why? From Mega Man to Super C to even Gradius now there are deaths that save seconds to minutes if done correctly and this is, ideally, the fastest way to play said categories.
I know this is a line between Up + A, deathwarps and deathless so the line to draw is a hard one. I am curious to see everyone's opinions on this and as to why the rules are the way they are.
Just to be clear, this is not an advocate for immediate change or anything like that, this is simply to discuss the differences and their merits. I am not calling anyone out or anything of that nature whatsoever.
The biggest reason I see to not allow deathwarps is simply that it's a slower version of Up+A. I also don't feel that the argument about not needing a 2nd controller holds any real weight. I'd think most speedrunners who run NES games would have a 2nd controller, if only as a backup for the one they primarily use. Runners on emulator can easily bind it to whatever 2 keys works for them.
As it stands, Up+A has always been a real category, even since back in the early-mid SDA days. If Up+A did something more than just imitate a death, then I'd see more reason to go with deathwarps (and likely it would already be a category).
Definitely strong points and I can't disagree with them. I'm sure all speedrunners have a second controller thats no issue at all it's just the necessity of using a second controller and a built in code has always felt off to me, in this and in Zelda. They have been around for a very long time so I won't argue against their removal but I think deathwarps is more pure in a speedrunner and gaming sense than up + a (IMO of course). Thanks for the well said reply.
Banning manual deathwarps in any category is outdated and simply nonsense. As an example, I consider the any% no up+A run that manually exits Kraids instead of deathwarping to the start of Kraids to be a very skilled run of a very bad route. The fact that deathwarping has the same function as up+A is largely irrelevant. One is a code on controller 2, the other is simply a strategy.
Using a 2nd controller to input a code just feels wrong. No one uses Konami code or invincibility codes or any other such codes in runs. Just because 10 year old rules are around doesn't mean they're good rules.
Tell that to everyone that has run Any% no up+A. You basically just decided that that entire category is archaic as well and that anyone who feels like it can submit a run with deathwarps to that category and obsolete better runs. It's like these people think that they just discovered deathwarps in this game and that magically, no one else ever thought to do it. Others weren't doing it for a reason and it's not because they didn't think to do so. You don't get to change the rules on a whim and then tell others why it's ok that you and you alone determined that the rules for the category shouldn't apply anymore. Way to tell runners like Cak, Controllerhead, and Dookel, who have put hundrends (probably thousands) of hours into any% (no up+A) and 2-Boss (no up+A) that their runs don't matter and that they were doing it wrong.
"It's faster" doesn't always fly in categories that aren't any%. Sorry. If a lower time is all that matters, resubmit your runs to any% up+A since that's the only category that they should have been placed under. Try submitting a 70 Star run of Super Mario 64 with backward long-jumps and Mips-Clip and you'd be rejected in a heart-beat and laughed at for your ignorance. The same thing should have happened here.
The fact that Big 20 runners are coming into the established Metroid NES community and determining that the rules for their silly race should take precedence over the long-standing rules "because it's faster" lol is disgusting. Get over yourselves.
^ Most of that was entirely uncalled for. Just because something was set 10 years ago also doesn't automatically make it okay. No one is saying that deathless and deathwarps (up + a) should be the same category.
The argument here was up + a vs deathwarping and why myself and some others though up + a isnt really a proper category since it uses a code and a second controller to do properly. In which case we're actually arguing a slower overall category by taking the code away.
Throwing petty insults around to try and get a point across does not help your argument at all either. Try to have some class next time you have an opinion on something to actually be taken seriously.
I don't see the point of not allowing deathwarps. Game breaking screenwraps are okay but taking a purposeful death is too much. That just seems silly and archaic. Deathless seems like an old challenge category and less of a speedrun category. "Because it's faster" is the point of speedrunning, is it not? Just make a new category that allows deathwarps and move the new runs over, problem solved.
Also salty post is salty
Allowing screenwrapping which bypasses large sections of the game and disallowing deathwarps is just absurd to me. There's really nothing special about deathwarping at all, it's a routing decision you can make in any game. I don't consider this worthy of being something so special as to be a new category, but if we must hold on to the arbitrary rules of 10 years ago it might need the word "deathless" in the category name or something. I don't know how 2 glitches in Mario 64 were just compared with deathwarping in Metroid. Maybe a better comparison is other non-linear NES games like Faxanadu(deathwarps allowed) or Rygar(1 with, 1 without, 1 ww). Perhaps some new mods are needed here that are actually a part of this established Metroid NES community to clean the site up a bit.
You don't get to decide that the rules for an established category don't exist anymore because you don't like them. If you want to have a discussion about it, then cool, discuss it. Submitting a run which blatantly disregards one of the only two stipulations of the 2-boss run (Beat Kraid + Ridley with no deathwarps) and proudly declaring you have "world record" is about the scummiest approach you could take. The fact that a mod that clearly doesn't know the run at all approved it on the spot doesn't make it acceptable.
There's a deathwarp and a no-deathwarp variation for both any% and 100% and so if there are people actually interested in running 2-boss with deathwarps, making a deathwarp variation for 2-boss seems like the logical solution. Deathwarps have always been considered a slower version of Up+A...they establish the exact same outcome. I would urge one of the mods (hopefully someone that's pretty familiar with Metroid NES speedruns) to make a 2-boss category that allows Up+A/deathwarps/whatever you want to call it. I find it hard to believe that there would be any objections to that solution.
As a further example, Inkject's best run of Metroid was while attempting Any% No Up+A. Unfortunately, somewhere during the run, he dies (it's been a while since I've seen it, I believe it was on the way out of Kraid's lair). He ended up PB'ing but correctly submitted it to the Any% Up+A category since he deathwarped in the run (unintentionally). What he didn't do was submit it as an Any% No Up+A run...because it wasn't. Deathwarping and Up+A do the same thing.
The only reason I submitted my run in the first place was because I saw someone else who ran it using deathwarps get submitted so I went ahead and submitted. Yeah I did tweet about it being wr because it was approved as a WR, seemed pretty obvious. It still is fur "up + a" in fact and it seems there are a lot of people who have interest in this category now.
In no way was I insulting any of the previous runners of this game at all by wanting to discuss deathwarps/up + a or by submitting that run and nore did I boast or anything of the sort, I made one simple tweet and then wanted to have a civil discussion over the merits of deathwarps/up + a.
Again you're attacking when it is very not necessary to do so. I am on board (as stated previously) with having a separate category for deathless and deathwarps/up + a. Yes some mods who run this game do need to take over and set proper rules and categories. I still think this merits an actual discussion over the use of a up + a and deathwarp as there are good arguments from both sides. Again just because something has been around a longtime doesn't make it right (or wrong) for that matter.
I think we're in agreement that the run is clearly submitted in the wrong category and that 2-Boss Up+A/Deathwarps/Whatever should be a new category so hopefully that will put the issue to rest when a capable mod comes along.
Discussion on the rules for current/future runners would be great. Breaking the rule because you don't like it and then trying to justify it afterwards really isn't cool, regardless of who is going to come in and try and justify it on your behalf. I don't know you well enough that I'd bother to hold it against you. I think it was a poor choice and I wasn't going to remain silent about it but I think everyone has the same intended solution to the issue and so I don't have anything further to add. I hope it works out. Peace.
Nowhere on the board does it state rules saying you can't deathwarp in the 2 Boss Category, or any category for that matter, there are no rules listed. Not sure how that makes him "scummy" for submitting a run. I don't know why you seem to be insinuating that Toad has some sinister evil plan to subvert the board and steal WR
Ok so here's the deal. I don't know anything about this speedrun or the categories or the history or anything. As far as I know none of the current mods speedrun this game, so I think it would be prudent to add someone who knows what they're doing as a mod. I'm going to discuss with the other supermods who we're going to mod. Stay tuned.
As skull64 said, we will definitely be adding at least one more mod with more direct experience of the game. But if I may offer my two cents: the most logical thing to me seems to be to keep the current system, perhaps renaming "no up+a" to "warpless" or similar. Death warps are already allowed in the up+a category; I don't see the argument for allowing one but not the other. (feel free to make that argument if you disagree!)
Edit: to clarify, 2 boss with warps/up+a obviously does need to be created.
I had a long spiel with some further thoughts on Up+A vs. deathwarps, but I don't feel it's needed.
Here's what I'm proposing we do with the categories: (applies to Any%, 2 Boss, and 100%) Up+A: No change. Will be renamed any% as it is the fastest way to complete the game. No Up+A: Will allow deathwarps, but not Up+A. Will be added as a new category. Deathless: Renamed from No Up+A. No change to the category itself.
I'll likely not add 100% No Up+A until someone actually bothers routing it...I contemplated a route last night and it made my head hurt. It actually would be a bit different than the 100% Up+A route thanks to dying with Varia and a shit ton of Energy Tanks taking forever lol.
Give me a bit to get the categories updated and renamed and the like.
OK, the leaderboards should be updated to reflect the new category addition and the renaming of No Up+A. I think I got all the runs moved to their proper categories. I'd ask the everyone check their own just to be sure. Also added rules to each category. If anyone notices something I missed, let me know.
That's a fair solution. Thanks for fixing up the board and adding all the rules in for each category, will help future NES Metroid runners.
It might be better to have deathless as the first of the 3 options, since it is still by far the most popular. Otherwise the new layout looks great.
