I forgot to mention that the ILs currently only include the stages...

But you can read about why that is in through the link. It's better than you think.

Okay, time’s up.

I added the levels, level categories, and wrote the rules (was a bit lazy on that one heh).

Hopefully I did an absolutely perfect job. We can all hope for perfection !

.

Hmmm… I previously said that I found what I argued to be a better timing point : upon the first frame that the HUD fades-down.

But I did an IL measuring test (youtu.be/GFoOErTaM9Q), and I found that it wasn’t holding up so well.

It’s really hard to see when the HUD begins fading down. especially compared to the game view fading down.

So we will probably go with the first solution, upon the first frame of the screen fading down, at the end of the stage.

.

I also forgot about one detail, thankfully it's kinda irrelevant. But you can start with however many extra lives you can. In full-game runs, you always have plenty of spare lives. We don't know of strats where you need to die multiple times to make them happen, yet at least.

It doesn't have to be said, but it's understandable that dying and being sent back to the beginning of the level doesn't count as an IL restart.

For one, the IL is still active, you simply failed a part. But second and more importantly, the game keeps tracks of the cutscenes you activated, and it won't trigger them again if you happen to be sent back. So if restarting the level via dying was allowed, it would allow for an unconventional way to beat some stages :

The player would first reach the end of the stage, therefore having cleared all cutscenes. Because they didn't grab any checkpoints, they would then die in order to be sent back to the beginning, where the IL "starts". The player can then proceed to beat the stage without wasting any time on cutscene skipping, since they won't even show up.

I would argue that this is to be avoided. It's counter culture to full-game runs, where they can't help but play the stage the intended way, skipping cutscenes along the way. You have to remember that our goal and design with these ILs are for the two to be directly comparable. It also goes in the way of practicability, since instead of just pressing start, you need to do a whole setup, which includes reaching the very end of the level and then dying manually... I personally think that resetting the stage by going to the pause menu and pressing retry should be used

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Oh… and talking about WRs won’t make much sense at first.

Technically, the first ever “IL submissions” come from the earliest recorded speedruns of DtP. So… blackwin5. Setako's 53:04 if we ever find it. And then it continues from there.

Safe to say, none of the upcoming submissions will probably be WR, as I’m sure better times have been produced amidst the hundreds of full-game runs accomplished by top runners.

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to go up and beyond.

Not that I want to dissuade any weaker IL runners from submitting. We need more submissions from all skill ranges ! And don't forget ! Footage taken from full-game runs is also fine ! That's one of the strengths of this IL board !

.

I'll start submitting some, based on the runs of my any% grinds of a while ago.

I may have found a slightly better visual cue for the end of the stages :

Timing ends upon the first frame that the HUD fades-down.

So, instead of it being on the first frame where the whole game fades out, it's on the frame the HUD does.

In terms of convenience, it's not necessarily an upgrade. But the timing cue is more consistent with where the visions each end. The HUD always disappears last, it is in fact the last visible game element before the entire screen gets dark (although in most cases, it actually fades down at the same time as the game view does).

This said, it doesn't solve the case of 2-2. The problem is that if you skip the cutscene, the HUD gets covered by the cutscene textbox. However, the fade-down happens during this exact time. So this method is unusable.

For 2-2 alone, we may still want to go for the previous visual cue : The 2-2 IL ends when the cutscene textbox lowers for the first frame.

I... what a meme now.

My apologies again for summoning you, not "neko_22" named Neko person.

Your proposal for the end stage being on the first frame the HUD fully fanishes isn't a bad one in theory. In practice though, the types of cues where you wait for something to completely disappear in the dark, tend to not work out very well because of video compression. Even with decent recording quality, the footage tends to leave artifacts of the element that's supposed to disappear for the run to end, making it a nightmare to time.

In comparison, the first frame of fade-down is much easier to detect, as even with poor quality, it is clearly visible when the color suddenly switches.

Still, for only knowing the game for that long, this was a pretty well put comment. Quite impressive.

amoser : I'm just praying it doesn't become a nuisance.

I'm leaning on the hopeful side of things. For the sake of this post, I've tested this visual cue on a couple youtube videos, putting them at their worst quality. Even then, the earliest frame was findable.

After arguably a decade of wait, it’s time we delve into adding one of the most anticipated leaderboard section of this game : ILs.

It’s truly been a long time coming. Here we go.

Discussion on this topic has started on Discord a couple weeks ago. Taking reference from it, I will attempt to draw a rough sketch of what the ILs could become.

First off, a bit of nuance is needed about what we’re about to add.

Technically, we lack ILs for both stages and bosses.

I’d argue though that we should first turn our attention on adding stage ILs before we do the bosses.

That’s because the latter mostly already exists. The Klonoa DtP page of the retroachievement website has had decently active boss ILs for years now (currently dominated by amoser) :

https://retroachievements.org/game/11261

Its existence actually contributed to the improvement of our full-game Ghadius strategies, and to the discovery of the modern Nahatomb phase I strategies.

You do need the retroarch emulator and a ROM to access it, however. Due to this accessibility problem, we're probably gonna have to add boss stuff down the line. We may also want to use a different timing method.

But stage IL wise, we’re empty-handed. It’s quite surprising for a game like this.

We’ve only ever known the stages by playing through them in a full-game setting, using very reliable strategies. Stage ILs have never seriously been tried, even though they have heaps of potential, considering all the crazy strats that’s been found on them since.

Thus, I propose that we focus on them for now.

Similarly, I propose that for every “X-2” stage, we only focus on their stage portion and exclude the bosses.

The intent here is to allow players to fully focus on stage optimization, instead of making them worry about also getting a good boss performance. Which would influence their stage play to be slower.

Alright. Time to go.

Let’s immediately get to the ugly part of this : the timing definition of the stage ILs.

When it comes to finding consistent visual cues, there’s really only so much you can do. I did what I could, and this is my default proposal. If you can think of any viable-looking alternatives, by all means. This time though, I will not go into details about my thought process.

• For the beginning point : upon the first frame that the HUD appears.

It should be easy enough to see even with poor video quality.

Nevertheless, exceptions need to be made for 1-1, 3-2, 5-2 and 6-1. This is because they begin with a cutscene, which displays a cutscene textbox. Problem is, this element has display priority over the HUD, making it basically impossible to read (<youtu.be/PvsRcJ6-Ofk?t=716>)… after verification though, I noticed that both of these elements display at the same time.

Knowing this, we can simplify the definition of the beginning timing point even further : the stage IL starts on the first frame that the HUD area of the game screen lights-up.

(implying that you either see the HUD loading, or the cutscene textbox over it loading.)

• For the ending point : upon the first frame of the screen fades-down, at the end of the stage.

This is applicable everywhere, except for 2-2. There, the stage ends after you skip a cutscene.

I had a lot of trouble coming up with a good cue for this one. But after a while of tinkering, I realized that the cutscene textbox stays for the entirety of the cutscene, until the very end. This is true even if you skip it.

Thus, I believe it to be appropriate that the 2-2 IL ends when the cutscene textbox lowers for the first frame.

...I was expecting that section to be much longer. Good I guess.

Moving on.

As there are four main categories for running the game, the stage ILs should naturally be playable under all four categories

As IL gameplay implies, all runs will have to be timed by the frame.

Like it's already done with full-game runs, it will be necessary for any submissions of these ILs to include information about the version of the game, and the disk speed. As these impact loading-times, and thus the overall time of the run.

That's all I could think of. I hope I didn't miss anything.

The hype thing with this IL system, is that every single segment of any full-game will be compatible with it. For instance, I could start extracting my best segments of my recent any% runs to submit as stage ILs.

I'll let you guys discuss it until say, the end of the week.

I’d also like the opinion of @neko_22 (sorry unrelated person named Neko) and @amoser before we do anything.

Hey. This is a repost of an update post made on the DCT thread. I posted it over there because it had a bigger impact on the leaderboard than here. I meant to post it here as well... I simply forgot.

https://www.speedrun.com/posts/l651o

Hey guys.

Update post about the Result Screen Skip.

As you know, this technique can be used to skip the result screen at the end of every stage/boss. Saving precious seconds each time.

However, what may have been overlooked at the time was its use on the VS Gantz stage. Doing it there immediately sends you to the world map, seemingly skipping the Garlen fight in the process. Which would be a problem if true, because the end point of any% is found during the final boss fight itself.

Sir, are we doomed ?

Nope. After testing - thanks to @ Dog_In_Da_Grass - we now know that no, this isn't an actual Garlen fight skip. The game doesn’t treat it as such.

For instance, after performing the “skip”, you still can’t play the extras (they just replay you the cutscene that plays when you enter the resort, and after that, you are sent back to the world map again). Likewise, your save-file isn’t marked with a blue color to represent that it's completed.

It’s akin to simply existing the VS Garlen mid-fight : you get sent to the world map, with the ability to select the VS stage, but understandably, nothing more than that happens.

Therefore, you still need to properly fight him to finish the game. No changes needed.

This will be the main thread for holding discussions about adding rules, categories... This is a presentation post that might be updated as time goes on with extra information. Actual discussion will occur below.

Really sorry for creating yet another thread. I would have repurposed one of the existing ones, however src removed the ability to change the names of threads. Truly incredible.

(co-written) Hey guys. Update post about the leaderboard.

As you all may know, the Steam Deck is a platform in which KPRS is fully playable (according to the Steam Store Page). That being said, use of this platform has not been seen until now, with @Leahp’s runs.

Neil and I have dug up information on it. We concluded the Steam Deck behaves more like a PC than a console (it is effectively a portable Linux machine).

For one, the Steam Deck supports an FPS Display, a 60 fps cap toggle, and possesses the ability to run certain games above 60 FPS. Additionally, the Steam Deck can be modded to significantly increase the FPS (up to 120). And the modding for it seems pretty accessible.

By now, we have accumulated enough knowledge to conclude that the game behaves differently at different frame rates outside of a certain range. Thus, we will be enforcing FPS regulation rules to Steam Deck to ensure a level playing field with both standard PC and console runs moving forward.

Thanks to Neil as usual for his help with this.

Like with the other games I've tracked, here is the WR history of the popular categories.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, or have found issues, please report ! This is a one man work after all.

KPRS CE Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMcAAdNKt1lDcfjZWDyuxCrjaCG0d2wxJ8cbrrZtfOQ/edit?usp=sharing

(Full post split in two separate post because of src text limit. Part 2)

• Switch differences

This one is quite shocking… but the way the Switch is set-up (in handheld or docked mode) would also seem to impact the game.

Neil has tested both configurations on Ghadius, and confirmed that the enemies in phase 2 could take different directions.

(Neil also felt that there were some IGT running differences between docked and handheld, but I tested this and couldn’t find a difference : )

• Still yet more Ghadius fight shenanigans

There’s been some extra weirdness about the second phase of this fight again.

But the first big piece of news about Ghadius is that Neil did find a top level strat for the second phase that matches the speed of the original PC exclusive strat while being available on the previously disadvantaged platforms.

Along with it he also figured out the broad requirements for these fights to happen :

° Old strat (more specifically a failed attempt of it where one of the trails went up instead of down at the very end, because of the platform being something other than PC) :

You need PC with Vsync off OR have the game screen be at a 16:10 ratio while in fullscreen to ensure this enemy pattern happens.

° New strat :

This is possible and afaik the only possible strat on console. On PC, you need to turn Vsync on. Or have a different screen ratio or not be in fullscreen.

Neil attempts to provide an explanation for the fullscreen requirement, saying that “it's weird. my guess is that playing in windowed mode introduces a bit of lag that can impact the angle at which the dark moos bounce off of the wheel. playing a game in full screen typically puts its processes at higher priority (which reduces the chance of this lag)”

By the end however, he stresses that «"every ghadius is personalized". So it's a matter of analyzing second phase behavior on your own to determine which of the different observed sets are present in your game.»

• Another potential game version difference

Outside of ISJ, we are 99% confident we know of a second way to determine the version of KPRS in-game. When pausing the game, the capitalization of the « How to play » option can be different. It’s in full caps for v1.0.0, whereas the v1.0.1 has normalized writing : https://imgur.com/a/HmrkUDK

Oh, lastly, Neil has argued about shortening the names of the father categories of the leaderboard. Namely by removing the “Klonoa” name. The reason being that the name of KPRS categories were unreasonably long, sometimes to the point where they couldn’t be displayed properly on LiveSplit. Indeed, when you want to show the category you’re playing on the window of the program, it’s forced to first indicate the father category “Klonoa:Door to Phantomile” before listing the actual category specification you’re playing.

Although I believe we would need a bit more discussion when it comes to change/shortening the entire name of the father categories, I agreed that the word “Klonoa” could be removed safely without much impact on the overall outlook of the leaderboard and categories, for the sake of better LiveSplit display. (and if you’re wondering, it doesn’t affect the way the autosplitter works).

The change was proposed on the discord server in august of this year, and the few people who replied were okay with it so we pushed it.

Thanks to Neil again for his work and his tremendous help.

(Full post split in two separate post because of src text limit. Part 1)

This update post was overdue.

New post, new strats, new technique with crazy potential... and more unfortunate news about the fundamental balance between consoles.

@NeilLegend has been fervently glitchhunting, and it definitely payed out :

• 4-2 wind hop trick

See this video for an explanation of the trick (). Compare the same thing on PC ()

So as you can see, for the wind hop to work, you need to stay on the final wind current for a short period of time. But to gain the necessary height to clear the jump, you can normally count on the wind currents to propel you very high during that period.

But as seen in the console clip, the currents there give nowhere as much height as on PC, making the trick impossible. Doesn’t work on PS5 and Switch.

This is a top level strat that only saves a couple seconds over normal play, and on certain categories.

• Huge new IGT abuse technique

Alternatively :

This is a pretty wild find. Tetons are supposed to pop off automatically, but they just don’t if you keep pausing and unpausing perfectly ?? When doing so, a single game frame elapses, in which the Teton continues to rise up without bursting.

Doing this in 1-1 to immediately climb onto the Lephise statue hill (that you can easily reach in support mode speedruns) saves 7 seconds, and could potentially save more if you also use it on the last screen of Balue’s Tower (if you’re wondering, Tetons also become resistant to ceilings in this one-frame game state)

This is a really unique trick that also makes you wonder what else can be tampered with by pausing this way. And speaking off, that video was done in real-time, without the use of TAS. It’s even an actual IL submission (or at least until he removed it as there was no consensus about the legality of this trick). What gives ?

Well… you’re probably guessed it now. It’s no coincidence. There a human way to pause this well.

If you hold escape after quitting the pause menu, the game will buffer it upon returning into the game. A truly broken tool here.

...Except it’s only available on the PC version. The controls are programmed differently. Ba-dum-tss.

This behavior is also possible on Wii, however it can't be used for anything meaningful. This is mainly because you can't pause-buffer in that game, as the game has a delay before you’re allowed to pause again.

On the other hand this behavior isn’t possible with PR2 either.

Anyways… would this be allowed outside of IGT abuse? Pretty clearly not, as using this pause-buffering technique to achieve anything takes several minutes. You can see it for yourself with the presented video. Not speedrun-spirit friendly. But it's a very welcome addition to IGT abuse.

Hello. I've been tracing the history of some of these categories, and I have always thought about turning these documents online. Which would be both easier to manage, and more accessible for anyone.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, please share them here. This is a one man work after all.

Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PGUBrJu45W5Hrf-TI3zSyKPAErhigVyPnoj4B8926zU/edit?usp=sharing

Hello. I've been tracing the history of some of these categories, and I have always thought about turning these documents online. Which would be both easier to manage, and more accessible for anyone.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, please share them here. This is a one man work after all.

Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J-dLeF5Ocr480PdhwgTy8tZavSstuCs-SMB-V9pAI7Y/edit?usp=sharing

Good catch. I forgot he ran this game.

I've been able to retrieve a link to the youtube side of the video, which is unlisted currently. And through the audit log (and more ways), I can confirm that the video was verified on this leaderboard. So even though the submission is gone, it can still safely be reinstated as an official record. Currently updating the page. (done)

You should probably still keep on his VOD just in case, but it's up to you.

Hello. I've been tracing the history of some of these categories, and I have always thought about turning these documents online. Which would be both easier to manage, and more accessible for anyone.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, please share them here. This is a one man work after all.

Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hDTpQmlLJ-1CxtxvUjYi_bmxvHG56kW6GurYcq7w7jU/edit?usp=sharing

Hello. I've been tracing the history of some of these categories, and I have always thought about turning these documents online. Which would be both easier to manage, and more accessible for anyone.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, please share them here. This is a one man work after all.

Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lLGfotT7pde0IaZNH1A4zg4qPzU3A5LuB-fch6TYGiQ/edit?usp=sharing

Hello. I've been tracing the history of some of these categories, and I have always thought about turning these documents online. Which would be both easier to manage, and more accessible for anyone.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, please share them here. This is a one man work after all.

Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OFI4PfPayHW7Ypd_igAVEq2MLfj2nYr2jvZLEZHlGzc/edit?usp=sharing

And he never came back...