Duplicate post that I can't delete because src will still make it show with the text "Deleted by the author". Also f me I messed up the title and CAN'T MODIFY IT AGAIN BECAUSE SRC IS

Hey guys. Thread topic in the title.

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The act of using external music – that is outside of the game - when doing runs is something that’s definitely uncommon in the speedrunning scene.

Most speedrun communities disallow it, either through a rule, or in the unsaid.

The leading reason usually being, it goes against the integrity of the game and speedrun.

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But some communities do. Like the Sly Cooper community, with the first game of the series. Players there are allowed to play with music. The current world record does.

Well, this isn’t entirely exact. These players are still required to record the game locally without the music.

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Alternatively, it would be very plausible to imagine certain games having it.

Games that don’t have any music on them, may allow players to use some as background audio. I don’t know of any at the top of my head, but they must exist.

Technically, in games where you can turn off their music, you could imagine communities allowing external music to be played.

As of today though, we have no community consensus about it. It was never discussed.

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More importantly, there are no rules about it, which is a transparency problem.

Runners could accidentally submit speedruns with external music in them, not knowing whether it’s allowed or not. As a matter of fact, it’s happened.

The question of allowing or denying the use of external music in speedruns isn’t an easy one to answer. Because it’s a clash between run integrity and runner convenience.

While it is true that for the Klonoa games, thus far, we have been prioritizing run integrity the most, I think this issue can’t objectively be answered. It comes down to opinions.

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For now, a temporary stance needs to be taken so that at least the runners can be informed.

I would suggest taking the safe route for the time being, by adding the following rule to every Klonoa games :

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You may turn off the game music in your runs, but the sound effects must be kept on and be audible. You may also play with external music during your runs, but if you do, in your submission, you must provide a link of a version of the run without the external music.

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(Note that as of right now, the only game in which you can turn off the music is KPRS.)

The rule would be changed as soon as the community collectively decides on something.

This thread will serve as a reminder of this topic.

Small update, Steam's FPS overlay (for PC only) received an overhaul, it's now finally possible to make the counter bigger :

https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/500576552635859540

Reply and help much appreciated. I can confirm your solution is working.

The fact that this has been an issue for years is truly disconcerting.

Thread content to be created soon...

Name says it all. It's been consistently happening for three days. (picture https://imgur.com/a/fmGs367)

It happens regardless of the series it's being done at. Normal forum threads such as this one and game boards work fine.

Am I the only one here ?

Oh yea,,,, uhhh... the Switch 2 is a thing now.

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We're gonna most likely hold off on allowing submissions on it for until we can see speedrun footage of it for both games.

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Here's sort of a basic runthrough of potential problems we could encounter with the platform :

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• On one hand, the Switch 2 emulates Switch 1 games. Meaning that theoretically, there could be gameplay inconsistencies between it and other consoles. But I'm personally not too worried about it. I don't think it will matter for much.

And either way, it's an official way to play the game, so it would be unfair to oppose to it. Especially because it seems that KPRS runs way better on the new system. Switch had always been the worst platform to play the game on, so this is great news.

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• On the other hand, I've heard the Switch 2 was capable of 120 FPS. And on the official website, it says that it's only for "supported games"... but they don't give a definition as to what exactly that is.

Since to my knowledge Switch 1 games would never go past 60 FPS, and all 120 FPS games would logically be Switch 2 exclusive, it seems like KPRS would be locked to 60 fps. But I'm not familiar with how you can configure the FPS on the system and I could be very wrong.

If playing the original games on 120 FPS is possible... then I'm not sure what we should do. We've always strived to run KPRS at 60 fps because it's what the game was designed around, and also because it ensures the gameplay and physics are how they should be like, especially when it comes to the DtP remaster. So my immediate opinion would be to also enforce 60 FPS play for switch 2.

But that asks two new questions : can you actually force the FPS to be 60 ? If it can't be fixed, if you're forced to play with whatever FPS the system gives you... then we have no choice but to accept it. At least it will give us an easy way out of this issue.

Now, if there's a way to fix the FPS to a specific value... would there then be a way to display the FPS counter on Switch 2, during gameplay, to show it ? Because if not, I'm not sure what we're gonna do then. I wouldn't know how to determine FPS through pure frame-by-frame analysis alone... does that mean we'd still be coerced into allowing Switch 2 KPRS runs to roam free, playing with whatever FPS the players feel like playing with ? Since we can't monitor it ?

Anyway, that's what comes off the tip of my head. Have you guys anything to add, have I missed anything important ?

Hey, I hope I'm not repeating a previous topic with this, I tried to make sure that wouldn't be the case but please be gentle with me if I did.

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I would like to discuss about the idea of allowing a user to hide certain PBs/categories, in order to make their front page look more concise and relevant.

You would be able to select the PB/category you've participated in, label them as "irrelevant", and src would not display them on the user profile(*).

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More broadly spoken, when user 2 scrolls through user 1's page, they may not be able to see the "irrelevant" PBs/categories user 1 chose to hide.

(*)However, player 2 may still be able to show them back, using the newly introduced "show irrelevant" slider (much like the "show obsolete" "show misc" that are in usage).

This feature only affects the basic, unfiltered view of the user profile, i.e what you see when you immediately click on someone's profile. You could always see those times back.

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Let's say that you run game that has many different categories.

While you feel proud of your performance over certain categories, there are many more you don't care about as much.

But on your profile, you invariably see every single PBs, which is annoying if you wanted to only show the relevant ones.

I know someone who feels that way, so this isn't a fantasy story.

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Their only solution, right now, is deleting all the submissions of the given category so they don't display. Yes, including WR times of unpopulated categories. That's not what we want.

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I know that it is, in a way, a backwards approach to allow people to highlight their runs. But again, the lack of any reasonable solution here remains regrettable. Src has cared a lot about adding more customization options to the profile of users, so this idea would be a fair continuation of that.

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Anyway, what do you guys think ?

I forgot to mention that the ILs currently only include the stages...

But you can read about why that is in through the link. It's better than you think.

Okay, time’s up.

I added the levels, level categories, and wrote the rules (was a bit lazy on that one heh).

Hopefully I did an absolutely perfect job. We can all hope for perfection !

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Hmmm… I previously said that I found what I argued to be a better timing point : upon the first frame that the HUD fades-down.

But I did an IL measuring test (youtu.be/GFoOErTaM9Q), and I found that it wasn’t holding up so well.

It’s really hard to see when the HUD begins fading down. especially compared to the game view fading down.

So we will probably go with the first solution, upon the first frame of the screen fading down, at the end of the stage.

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I also forgot about one detail, thankfully it's kinda irrelevant. But you can start with however many extra lives you can. In full-game runs, you always have plenty of spare lives. We don't know of strats where you need to die multiple times to make them happen, yet at least.

It doesn't have to be said, but it's understandable that dying and being sent back to the beginning of the level doesn't count as an IL restart.

For one, the IL is still active, you simply failed a part. But second and more importantly, the game keeps tracks of the cutscenes you activated, and it won't trigger them again if you happen to be sent back. So if restarting the level via dying was allowed, it would allow for an unconventional way to beat some stages :

The player would first reach the end of the stage, therefore having cleared all cutscenes. Because they didn't grab any checkpoints, they would then die in order to be sent back to the beginning, where the IL "starts". The player can then proceed to beat the stage without wasting any time on cutscene skipping, since they won't even show up.

I would argue that this is to be avoided. It's counter culture to full-game runs, where they can't help but play the stage the intended way, skipping cutscenes along the way. You have to remember that our goal and design with these ILs are for the two to be directly comparable. It also goes in the way of practicability, since instead of just pressing start, you need to do a whole setup, which includes reaching the very end of the level and then dying manually... I personally think that resetting the stage by going to the pause menu and pressing retry should be used

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Oh… and talking about WRs won’t make much sense at first.

Technically, the first ever “IL submissions” come from the earliest recorded speedruns of DtP. So… blackwin5. Setako's 53:04 if we ever find it. And then it continues from there.

Safe to say, none of the upcoming submissions will probably be WR, as I’m sure better times have been produced amidst the hundreds of full-game runs accomplished by top runners.

But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to go up and beyond.

Not that I want to dissuade any weaker IL runners from submitting. We need more submissions from all skill ranges ! And don't forget ! Footage taken from full-game runs is also fine ! That's one of the strengths of this IL board !

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I'll start submitting some, based on the runs of my any% grinds of a while ago.

I may have found a slightly better visual cue for the end of the stages :

Timing ends upon the first frame that the HUD fades-down.

So, instead of it being on the first frame where the whole game fades out, it's on the frame the HUD does.

In terms of convenience, it's not necessarily an upgrade. But the timing cue is more consistent with where the visions each end. The HUD always disappears last, it is in fact the last visible game element before the entire screen gets dark (although in most cases, it actually fades down at the same time as the game view does).

This said, it doesn't solve the case of 2-2. The problem is that if you skip the cutscene, the HUD gets covered by the cutscene textbox. However, the fade-down happens during this exact time. So this method is unusable.

For 2-2 alone, we may still want to go for the previous visual cue : The 2-2 IL ends when the cutscene textbox lowers for the first frame.

I... what a meme now.

My apologies again for summoning you, not "neko_22" named Neko person.

Your proposal for the end stage being on the first frame the HUD fully fanishes isn't a bad one in theory. In practice though, the types of cues where you wait for something to completely disappear in the dark, tend to not work out very well because of video compression. Even with decent recording quality, the footage tends to leave artifacts of the element that's supposed to disappear for the run to end, making it a nightmare to time.

In comparison, the first frame of fade-down is much easier to detect, as even with poor quality, it is clearly visible when the color suddenly switches.

Still, for only knowing the game for that long, this was a pretty well put comment. Quite impressive.

amoser : I'm just praying it doesn't become a nuisance.

I'm leaning on the hopeful side of things. For the sake of this post, I've tested this visual cue on a couple youtube videos, putting them at their worst quality. Even then, the earliest frame was findable.

After arguably a decade of wait, it’s time we delve into adding one of the most anticipated leaderboard section of this game : ILs.

It’s truly been a long time coming. Here we go.

Discussion on this topic has started on Discord a couple weeks ago. Taking reference from it, I will attempt to draw a rough sketch of what the ILs could become.

First off, a bit of nuance is needed about what we’re about to add.

Technically, we lack ILs for both stages and bosses.

I’d argue though that we should first turn our attention on adding stage ILs before we do the bosses.

That’s because the latter mostly already exists. The Klonoa DtP page of the retroachievement website has had decently active boss ILs for years now (currently dominated by amoser) :

https://retroachievements.org/game/11261

Its existence actually contributed to the improvement of our full-game Ghadius strategies, and to the discovery of the modern Nahatomb phase I strategies.

You do need the retroarch emulator and a ROM to access it, however. Due to this accessibility problem, we're probably gonna have to add boss stuff down the line. We may also want to use a different timing method.

But stage IL wise, we’re empty-handed. It’s quite surprising for a game like this.

We’ve only ever known the stages by playing through them in a full-game setting, using very reliable strategies. Stage ILs have never seriously been tried, even though they have heaps of potential, considering all the crazy strats that’s been found on them since.

Thus, I propose that we focus on them for now.

Similarly, I propose that for every “X-2” stage, we only focus on their stage portion and exclude the bosses.

The intent here is to allow players to fully focus on stage optimization, instead of making them worry about also getting a good boss performance. Which would influence their stage play to be slower.

Alright. Time to go.

Let’s immediately get to the ugly part of this : the timing definition of the stage ILs.

When it comes to finding consistent visual cues, there’s really only so much you can do. I did what I could, and this is my default proposal. If you can think of any viable-looking alternatives, by all means. This time though, I will not go into details about my thought process.

• For the beginning point : upon the first frame that the HUD appears.

It should be easy enough to see even with poor video quality.

Nevertheless, exceptions need to be made for 1-1, 3-2, 5-2 and 6-1. This is because they begin with a cutscene, which displays a cutscene textbox. Problem is, this element has display priority over the HUD, making it basically impossible to read (<youtu.be/PvsRcJ6-Ofk?t=716>)… after verification though, I noticed that both of these elements display at the same time.

Knowing this, we can simplify the definition of the beginning timing point even further : the stage IL starts on the first frame that the HUD area of the game screen lights-up.

(implying that you either see the HUD loading, or the cutscene textbox over it loading.)

• For the ending point : upon the first frame of the screen fades-down, at the end of the stage.

This is applicable everywhere, except for 2-2. There, the stage ends after you skip a cutscene.

I had a lot of trouble coming up with a good cue for this one. But after a while of tinkering, I realized that the cutscene textbox stays for the entirety of the cutscene, until the very end. This is true even if you skip it.

Thus, I believe it to be appropriate that the 2-2 IL ends when the cutscene textbox lowers for the first frame.

...I was expecting that section to be much longer. Good I guess.

Moving on.

As there are four main categories for running the game, the stage ILs should naturally be playable under all four categories

As IL gameplay implies, all runs will have to be timed by the frame.

Like it's already done with full-game runs, it will be necessary for any submissions of these ILs to include information about the version of the game, and the disk speed. As these impact loading-times, and thus the overall time of the run.

That's all I could think of. I hope I didn't miss anything.

The hype thing with this IL system, is that every single segment of any full-game will be compatible with it. For instance, I could start extracting my best segments of my recent any% runs to submit as stage ILs.

I'll let you guys discuss it until say, the end of the week.

I’d also like the opinion of @neko_22 (sorry unrelated person named Neko) and @amoser before we do anything.

Hey. This is a repost of an update post made on the DCT thread. I posted it over there because it had a bigger impact on the leaderboard than here. I meant to post it here as well... I simply forgot.

https://www.speedrun.com/posts/l651o

Hey guys.

Update post about the Result Screen Skip.

As you know, this technique can be used to skip the result screen at the end of every stage/boss. Saving precious seconds each time.

However, what may have been overlooked at the time was its use on the VS Gantz stage. Doing it there immediately sends you to the world map, seemingly skipping the Garlen fight in the process. Which would be a problem if true, because the end point of any% is found during the final boss fight itself.

Sir, are we doomed ?

Nope. After testing - thanks to @ Dog_In_Da_Grass - we now know that no, this isn't an actual Garlen fight skip. The game doesn’t treat it as such.

For instance, after performing the “skip”, you still can’t play the extras (they just replay you the cutscene that plays when you enter the resort, and after that, you are sent back to the world map again). Likewise, your save-file isn’t marked with a blue color to represent that it's completed.

It’s akin to simply existing the VS Garlen mid-fight : you get sent to the world map, with the ability to select the VS stage, but understandably, nothing more than that happens.

Therefore, you still need to properly fight him to finish the game. No changes needed.

This will be the main thread for holding discussions about adding rules, categories... This is a presentation post that might be updated as time goes on with extra information. Actual discussion will occur below.

Really sorry for creating yet another thread. I would have repurposed one of the existing ones, however src removed the ability to change the names of threads. Truly incredible.

(co-written) Hey guys. Update post about the leaderboard.

As you all may know, the Steam Deck is a platform in which KPRS is fully playable (according to the Steam Store Page). That being said, use of this platform has not been seen until now, with @Leahp’s runs.

Neil and I have dug up information on it. We concluded the Steam Deck behaves more like a PC than a console (it is effectively a portable Linux machine).

For one, the Steam Deck supports an FPS Display, a 60 fps cap toggle, and possesses the ability to run certain games above 60 FPS. Additionally, the Steam Deck can be modded to significantly increase the FPS (up to 120). And the modding for it seems pretty accessible.

By now, we have accumulated enough knowledge to conclude that the game behaves differently at different frame rates outside of a certain range. Thus, we will be enforcing FPS regulation rules to Steam Deck to ensure a level playing field with both standard PC and console runs moving forward.

Thanks to Neil as usual for his help with this.

Like with the other games I've tracked, here is the WR history of the popular categories.

If you have doubts about certain of the information presented, or have found issues, please report ! This is a one man work after all.

KPRS CE Doc (all-in-one) : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tMcAAdNKt1lDcfjZWDyuxCrjaCG0d2wxJ8cbrrZtfOQ/edit?usp=sharing

(Full post split in two separate post because of src text limit. Part 2)

• Switch differences

This one is quite shocking… but the way the Switch is set-up (in handheld or docked mode) would also seem to impact the game.

Neil has tested both configurations on Ghadius, and confirmed that the enemies in phase 2 could take different directions.

(Neil also felt that there were some IGT running differences between docked and handheld, but I tested this and couldn’t find a difference : )

• Still yet more Ghadius fight shenanigans

There’s been some extra weirdness about the second phase of this fight again.

But the first big piece of news about Ghadius is that Neil did find a top level strat for the second phase that matches the speed of the original PC exclusive strat while being available on the previously disadvantaged platforms.

Along with it he also figured out the broad requirements for these fights to happen :

° Old strat (more specifically a failed attempt of it where one of the trails went up instead of down at the very end, because of the platform being something other than PC) :

You need PC with Vsync off OR have the game screen be at a 16:10 ratio while in fullscreen to ensure this enemy pattern happens.

° New strat :

This is possible and afaik the only possible strat on console. On PC, you need to turn Vsync on. Or have a different screen ratio or not be in fullscreen.

Neil attempts to provide an explanation for the fullscreen requirement, saying that “it's weird. my guess is that playing in windowed mode introduces a bit of lag that can impact the angle at which the dark moos bounce off of the wheel. playing a game in full screen typically puts its processes at higher priority (which reduces the chance of this lag)”

By the end however, he stresses that «"every ghadius is personalized". So it's a matter of analyzing second phase behavior on your own to determine which of the different observed sets are present in your game.»

• Another potential game version difference

Outside of ISJ, we are 99% confident we know of a second way to determine the version of KPRS in-game. When pausing the game, the capitalization of the « How to play » option can be different. It’s in full caps for v1.0.0, whereas the v1.0.1 has normalized writing : https://imgur.com/a/HmrkUDK

Oh, lastly, Neil has argued about shortening the names of the father categories of the leaderboard. Namely by removing the “Klonoa” name. The reason being that the name of KPRS categories were unreasonably long, sometimes to the point where they couldn’t be displayed properly on LiveSplit. Indeed, when you want to show the category you’re playing on the window of the program, it’s forced to first indicate the father category “Klonoa:Door to Phantomile” before listing the actual category specification you’re playing.

Although I believe we would need a bit more discussion when it comes to change/shortening the entire name of the father categories, I agreed that the word “Klonoa” could be removed safely without much impact on the overall outlook of the leaderboard and categories, for the sake of better LiveSplit display. (and if you’re wondering, it doesn’t affect the way the autosplitter works).

The change was proposed on the discord server in august of this year, and the few people who replied were okay with it so we pushed it.

Thanks to Neil again for his work and his tremendous help.