Glitchless is pretty important and I feel that it should be an extension of the Easy board.

Example: https://ibb.co/v3w3d55 (Sonic the Hedgehog 1 for Genesis)

On this one I'd vote it stays in Misc. It's different enough that It's good that it exists and It's fun to play the full be prepared (not sure about fun but you know what I mean). But I don't think it should be a full category thing. Interested for others opinions.

I think it's something to look at again as more runs are submitted to no exploits maybe? (wow my time looks.....really bad in there....)

I'd agree with @PlayingWithDick on this one. I don't believe it's an actual serious category that needs to be associated with the easy%.

I personally believe it should remain in Misc. The reason is because it was originally its own category until about a month ago, when it was moved into Misc., and during this time, it wasn't very popular. The few glitches/exploits that are performed in the any% run don't really break the game to the point where we can save an insane amount of time over exploitless. The largest amount of time saved is in Be Prepared where we skip 95% of the level. We don't skip entire levels or even most of the gameplay. I see Exploitless as more of a novelty category.

If we ever happen to see a general interest in the category, I would be in favor of restoring Exploitless to its own category tab or as an extension of Easy Any%.

okay, well, with all due respect, i've spent hours routing the category. even if i'm the only one taking it seriously, i'm still valid and i don't think it would hurt anything to have it as a button on the easy board :)

In Sonic 1 glitchless, the restrictions are sweeping bans of glitches that change the stage routes significantly, not specific instances of tech listed for each stage. The only similar restrictions in No Exploits here are the Be Prepared skip and Exile clips, which are reasonable. However, the other restrictions either don't change or barely change the stage route. Swiping in the air to gain height is basic movement tech and skipping ledges with it doesn't change the route of the stage. Leopard spawner skips don't change it, not doing boulder skip is a very brief detour back to the same place you would have been anyway, jumping through the bone wall in graveyard doesn't change the route, the first giraffe head jump is another brief detour and the second one skips nothing. Even the health bug jump is questionable because all it takes is a neutral jump to grab the ledge, not really a glitch. The case for the existence of No Exploits in this game is very weak, especially in comparison to S1 glitchless. If it is going to exist at all, I think it should stay in misc. Technically anyone could come up with any ruleset and spend hours on it, but I think it's important to consider whether a category has a natural existence or if it is arbitrary. It's not about individuals, it's about keeping things simple and sensible as a leaderboard should be.

I spent last evening doing some runs with the no exploit rules. Submitted a run just for fun. And I'm in agreement with the points made by @Akiteru. The rules for no exploits seem fairly arbitrary. We can't ledge swipe, but the rules are fine with diving into the brambles in Destiny without using the boulders. The pathing is the same in both cases, but one is legal and the other is not. We're also permitted to dive on the gorilla in Hakuna Matata despite the "correct" way being to wait until the ground pound.

If we want to make No Exploits a legitimate category, I think there needs to be an overhauling of the rules. Honestly, the only things that should be banned are true out of bounds glitches (Be Prepared skip, All exile clips, and possibly super jump). At that point, I would say we may have created something unique without all the extra baggage of trying to force it to feel unique.

OK, so hot take here apparently. I don't understand why No Exploit is even under a misc. tag. I honestly believe it should be on the board as an extension of Easy, and the other difficulties if someone is feeling brave. I agree with Cap here that the run needs to have a clear and concise ruling on what is and isn't considered an exploit, because opinions may differ, but I also think that just because it doesn't change the route, doesn't mean it isn't significant to the run, as we can clearly see how much these skips have an affect on the run just by looking at the leaderboards.

I understand that its not the most popular category, but I also don't think it's something that should be distanced from the rest of the board. A misc. tag should be for wacky and actually obscure things, like Blindfolded Stampede or All Exits Return, not for playing the game as fast as possible normally.

To the post above, to your first statement - no exploits was sitting as a normal category for months, and was only moved after we took a vote. Everybody who voted - voted yes to moving no exploits to Misc. Zero opposition. We just finally got around to moving it after months, which is honestly why I’m feeling a bit stubborn about it. That nobody opposed and right after we finally did it after months of waiting we want it back in place.

I’m perfectly fine with this, by the way. Not mad - if we get a general agreement that people want it, that’s ok. Was just feeling iffy that it happened right after.

I also do agree if it does come to us putting it as an extension, rules need to have an overhaul.

Just a thought, but what if the 2 main categories for the board were Any% and No Exploits (or whatever it needs to be called if a rules overhaul happens) with the difficulties being sub-categories under two? If we're adding all the difficulties to No Exploits, that seems to make more sense to me than having it as a category of Misc. with more sub categories inside that. In my mind, having the two main tabs of the board be the two main "route" options seems like a cleaner looking board and more easy to navigate.

One thing to remember about making any of these a button choice subcategory is that it might break any API calls that fetch runs on these leaderboards. For example when choosing a category for splits in Livesplit, you cannot choose subcategories at all. As an example with Cajinks suggestion, it would always show the category as any% or No exploits and find only a single WR time there (easy) for automated WR showing.

Currently even though no exploits is under 'Misc' tab on the site, you can still choose it as a separate run category in livesplit, allowing easy distinction between split files. At least personally I find this a great feature to have when combined with the autosplitter, as it allows me to keep a very consistent track of my split progression by category.

In my eyes having it be a subcategory under easy any% might even end up hiding it more than the current location under the misc tab, and due to the API/livesplit issues above, I would vote to keep it a misc category,

Although I'm not personally interested in this category, I do feel like glitchless categories should only fall under Misc if it doesn't change the run sufficiently or if there is a general lack of interest from players. The fact that it skips almost the entirety of one level, and large portions of another certainly make it a sufficiently different run. The fact that there are nine players in that category shows that there is interest. I'm not sure if people would run the category for Normal or Difficult, but I suppose that remains to be seen.

As far as voting for it to be in Misc in the first place, I have to agree that this is ultimately a community decision, but was there a vote? I might be completely forgetting this happening, but I don't remember there being one... just some discussion in Discord, of which I'm not very active in to be fair. As far as the opinions voiced in this thread, it looks like EiGhT, dwarvendynamite, cajink87 and I would prefer this category to not fall within Misc.

As far as the ruleset, I've never been a fan, but I remember it appearing to be the most common ground that the community agreed on at the time. My opinion is that it should just ban the use of clips specifically. As in, anytime you force Simba through a wall or floor.

I'd also be fine with it being renamed something like Glitchless if that makes people happy. Fun fact, I was probably the person that first suggested the term of No Exploits to Insomnimatic, as I felt it better described all of the other banned strats better than glitches. Honestly, even calling a clip a glitch is not technically accurate, but I feel that its a fair use so that we can have a more normal sounding category name.

As far as how LiveSplit makes API calls to retrieve data, I agree that is unfortunate, but it shouldn't hold us back from using the features of this site. It's really a lack of features on the part of LiveSplit, because that information can definitely be retrieved. The WRBot and other, similar variants are able to do so.

Ultimately, my suggestion to the community is to first do a quick discussion on rule changes to this category and put it up for a vote. Once that has been cleared up, maybe we can reconsider whether or not this should fall under Misc.

It does in fact look like we're going to have to run another vote here soon, both for discussing whether it'll move again and for a new ruleset. Old ruleset is a mess. But do know if we do in fact overhaul this category (which is what this seems to be turning into), all current runs are going to be scrapped.

[quote=8BitsOfJoy]The fact that there are nine players in that category shows that there is interest.[/quote] I think it is also necessary to note that most of those runs were made as the category was created and was left alone after a while. At the moment it looks like 1-2 players are actually actively running it - which I don't want that to mean there's only like 2 runs on the new version of that leaderboard then it dies again.

[quote=8BitsOfJoy]As far as voting for it to be in Misc in the first place, I have to agree that this is ultimately a community decision, but was there a vote? I might be completely forgetting this happening, but I don't remember there being one... just some discussion in Discord[/quote] I should say agreement, more than a vote. It was asked, and 7 people reacted with yes and nobody else opposed it.

When 'exploitless' was first brought up in the discord the rules where all discussed openly and in my perspective, I always thought of it as a mix of glitchless=intended path from the point of view of the developers. We knew the rules where a little grey in places, like when we discussed the monkey fight, they did program the monkey to have a fight pattern but on genesis the opening to jump on him straight away when he sits is so large that even blind players were doing it. Which is why ultimately it was left like that. Just for a catch up for how it came to be like that.

I do agree it may have been all over thought. The restarts in making a small mistake out of habit in a way that doesn't really affect game play is a little harsh, but that was kind of the idea as an "intended path" type thing. I actually really like the idea from 8BitsOfJoy to simplify it to only the exile skips/be prepared skip. With the category simpler it would probably encourage more players and focus on the main differences of the category which arguably playing ‘be prepared’ is the only reason it exists.

I still see it as a big enough difference obviously to be deserving of a category and I'm open to a bunch of new ideas to be in misc. (alldifficultys/allbugs/damageless) as that’s what the misc. tab is for, just doing something different/fun from the main speed run strats. I still don't see it as being considered a main category by any stretch. When we had the big SNES board discussions I couldn't convince people Normal% was deserving of a main spot, different board of course but the idea of other categories becoming main extensions wasn’t even brought up as a consideration.

Definitely deserving of a vote with such mixed opinions, it's good to see.

I want to start by just admiring each and every single person that has stepped up and voiced their opinion. We have really come a long way and I love that we are unifying for the larger cause of how we want TLK to be represented. I just ran normal and difficult no exploit runs, ultimately my greatest focus was staying alive lol. It was more of a headache trying to remember the little moves that are banned than focusing on the main differences which for me were the hyena fights and be prepared full level. I always try to view decisions through how it will affect new runners and ultimately if we can get new runners to say "I can do that" then we have done a great job at sparking interest. I agree with a vote and if the new rules will spark more interest than I'm all for it.