What do you guys think about changing the timing slightly? instead of ending the time at the newscaster, what if we make it when the game says FINAL. i think the extra bit is kind of a waste.
I think the start time could be adjusted as well, because it's really hard to see when you press A for retiming. During the opponent selection screen both the team and the word "computer" blink and so there is no visual indication when you press A. Instead, I've had to count back 17 frames from the first all black frame after selection.
As for the FINAL, I think that's a better choice too since I almost invariably split late on the newscaster. The only reason to wait until then is that you have to press A once to skip the stats screen but I don't think that really shows any particular skill and I agree it's just a waste.
Would you rather start timing at the first black screen after selecting opponent or first screen when the coin toss pops up? I know the coin toss varies, so I'd leave that in.
Either way, I'm in favor of both changes, regardless of what the starting time is. Just as long as it's defined in a way we can easily recreate.
I would say a good start time would be at the first frame you see the field. Right after the coin toss.
The coin toss varying is meh honestly imo.
I'd prefer to have a start time that is static from a button press with a clear visual indication. That way it is easy ot start your timer (with whatever offset, if needed) when you press a button and also easy to check visually for retiming purposes.
To that end I'd suggest the first black frame after opponent selection (0.282 offset on timer if you start timer when you press A)
As someone who once got 100 lines in Tetris, and can count bombs, I would also prefer a visible cue I can control. We can back time Livesplit to account for the 17 frames after hitting start + splits start (-0.282). Then the timer is 0 at the black before the coin flip.
The ultimate reason why I would not wish to remove the coin flip is that not only is it an RNG element (it can flip more sometimes, and maybe we find ways to exploit this), but there is also the brain process of "did it land on what I needed it to land on" + Kickoff, where you'd then add "hitting the timer" to that progression. I think it could mess people up/delay them. Not like the hugest deal, or the best argument for not doing it, but at least it is one less thing to worry about.
End time at final confirmation on the end of game seems more fun than waiting on screens taking forever. I hate runs where you are forced to sit there until a certain point in the text (Dragon Warrior Randomizer) or until the final unskippable, but not controllable scenes play out.
Wait, Larry... Are you suggesting the extra 10 minutes at the end of Super Mario RPG so the timer can end on the D is kind of pointless???
Edit: SMW to SMRPG
It can be situational by game, and could become dumb and pointless arguments (because what does it really matter if everyone is timing the same way), but I think it is otherwise silly to end time on anything but loss of control from the "main focus" of the game, or the clear ending of such (visually) To have to sit through cutscenes and mash through additional text to arrive at a specific message seems like you are made to do it just to do it because that is what the original runner did, or what the oldbois want you to do.
My example was Dragon Warrior Randomizer. When you kill Dragonlord you have to return to the castle, which is a valid part of the game. You might not have the return spell, or wings, so you could have to walk it. This is rare, but nevertheless a part of the game. When you arrive at the King, you stop (loss of control). But the rules indicate you have to wait for a specific message to stop the timer/end the race. If you saved the Princess, you have to wait even longer...
Timing is very objective, but it should start and stop on logical cues that are not only visible (for re-timing purposes), but repeatable. This is why I am not in favor of starting on first sight of the field. When that happens the directional meter also starts moving. To be optimal you'd want to almost hit the meter right away, since it is instantly going in the direction you want it to go in, then quickly hit for low power, then all this while you are trying to start your timer as well.
Seems like too much. Similar to starting Splatterhouse, the timer, then resetting for the quicker start. All those button presses at once when maybe gaining control of the character would just offset the need for all this.
I have a new run to submit, but for now, I'm going to use old timing rules until there's a consensus on the new timing.
Personally, I'd like to keep the coin flip RNG. I was talking with Larry about it earlier on stream. Let's pretend this game somehow got super popular and people are figuring out how to manipulate for a quicker coin flip. I feel like I'd want that part of the run. So, for that reason, I'd suggest the frame before all the teams disappear. I use that specific frame because it's the only consistent option. Depending on timing, when the whole list of teams disappear, sometimes the word "computer" is still up for a frame... other times, it's in the blink phase and it's not there. So going by the frame before teams disappear seems like the best option.
And finally, I'm perfectly fine with switching the end time to the first frame "FINAL" appears. I know it does nothing for timing with everyone on the leader board, but it means we don't have to button mash again just to get the final time. And really, that's typically going to be exactly the same for everyone... at worst, maybe a hundredth of a second difference.
Anyway, thoughts?
i changed the timing of "win championship" category to match that of "win a game" updated the one time posted as well.
