When @ROMaster2 came to wc3, a lot of things was changed. Timing rules included. Since then many new runs was added and wc3 section became probably more active overall, which is a good thing. But on the other side leaderboards became way more messy with timing differences and especially with some videos which was manually added by @ROMaster2.

In my mind the perfect leaderboard should be as simply&clear as possible with videoproofs "plug'n'play style". You click play and watch chosen exact campaign/mission with exact specified for this run time. I tried to set up leaderboards that way back into the days I was moderating wc3. Hope to see leaderboards better-ordered some day.

I saw your run a while ago (probably the day you posted it), but since ROMaster2 came to warcraft section with rules and all other changes - I'm not sure I have a right to verify new runs. It's not forbidden at all, but since some points are not clear for me - I don't want to verify wrong run or reject correct run.

So it's really better to contact with him. I'll try to help you on that.

From my point of view on existing rules bonus campaign is not a part of full game run. So, your time should be shortened to the moment when you finish the last Scourge campaign mission. I have no idea why it has not been verified (or rejected with the reason at least) that long though.

Good to see first full game run! Great job on that! Speed doesn't matter that much, I mean it's the first one and definitely not easy to do in single-segment taking into consideration the overall duration. I hope it will be verified soon.

@ROMaster2 Can I contact with you via skype or something?

You upload one video with full campaign run (which was already been verified btw) as the video for every level run. Even without timestamps.

If you want for whatever reason cut Sajiki's Human campaign run mission by mission - I will verify these videos with no problem. If you or him have better IL PB's from over attempts it will be even better (exact thing that I've done with TFT Sentinels)

A bit more about my TFT Sentinels runs: I've added PB's for every mission for the exact reasons you talking about. And of course anyone can submit their runs too. Never has been a problem.

Only best attempt per player shown in leaderboard. So, I see no reason to upload newer&worse runs - simply because they will not appear in leaderboard. It was probably an issue once for all time. I can't remember with whom since it was a long time ago but if he really wants to verify this attemps I can do that, no problem. Just let him know that nobody will be able to watch his run (because his own better run "overlaps" in leaderboard).

I'm not sure I understand you completely. We talk about only IL. There are no plans now to change full campaign timing. So, we need to only add offset for old runs to match new rules (ingame timer).

Of course in ideal world it would better if every runner remake video with final screen (with time) included. And every video will meet new rules. But I don't feel it's possible. So, decent solution will be to not change old videos but add offset and short comment.

UPD: There is no need to add every mission to IL leaderboards from existing full campaign runs. If you ask about that.

Same as my tests. We definitely gonna switch to ingame timer for IL runs. To do that we need to retime all old runs and formalize the rules. If you can do retiming it would definitely help me a lot.

@BFPolar

There is not a lot of action in wc3 section, so creating new categories is not a good idea generally. However, if some people have runs which can be added as some sub-category I will create it. No problem.

I'm curious - why don't you want to run campaign without cheats?

About cutscenes - it is allowed to skip them or what do you mean?

@ROMaster2 It shouldn't be cheat% for sure. We can figure out the name when all specific rules will be identified. But again, it will be actual only if some people will make their runs or that specific category will be pointless (empty/dead) forever.

@Cody360c It looks like everybody who are active now have explained their opinions. Sadly, there were some people who ask me about timer, rules, etc. via skype but havn't got in discussion yet. I'm gonna wait a little bit more and than will make anticipated adjustments.

About discord. I have registered account and took quick look on it but nothing more. It is app for communication and still beta. And everybody can create a 'server' (chat room?). I'm not sure I understand: what exactly do you want from me?

If video includes the final screen than time will simply be changed to that time. If not I plan to shift it to approximate difference

It's only a dicsussion though. We are not switching right now. But it's a good idea to keep final screen in your runs now to be, you know, prepared for any options.

Very interesting trick. First time saw that. It looks like we gonna switch to IGT for IL runs, so probably will not matter soon. For now I see no prohibition.

@ROMaster2

I love the idea with auto-splitter. It should put all in equal situation. I mean those who have faster computer will not have advantage. One thing I worry about will it be easy to use? I mean if we allow to use this splitter we should be sure that everyone will be able to use it.

@Savusukka

Yes, we talking about deleting only cinematics, not cutscenes. I updated my first post to clarify this.

@Cody360c

Include final screen to your run so if we choose to switch to IGT for IL runs you will not need to rerun. Howewer if we will move to auto-splitter than probably everyone will have to redo all their runs.

This is an interesting question.

I personally look to individual level runs as a preparation for full campaign. So I do them the way I plan to do in campaign run later. Of course get 'prepared' heroes will give you an advantage. But we can not avoid it, because we can not set up the 'right' items sets. So it should be either none or any. None is a sick option because you will need to "clear" your heroes after every mission in IL runs. So, no items or preparations ban looks like the better option.

Of course you will never be able to do full campaign with the time which is the sum of your ILs runs if you use any specific preparation

Thank you for explanation. I saw that every run use saves and replays for those glitches and thought that they are necessary. If you still can skip significant part of a game without saves and/or replays than it's much more complicated, yeah.

Still think that we should make rules as simple as possible though.

P.S. By the way I'm a bit curious how can you make all those instapasses/duping/etc without using replay/save at least once? Can somebody give me a video for example?

"so is anyone here really AGAINST calling it ACE?"

Actually, I probably a little bit against. Don't get me wrong, just 2 thoughts:

1. Rules now are not simple. I mean that part:

"You may not use any tricks that skip to specific parts of the mission script to start any mission at will. This is called ACE, or "Arbitrary Code Execution", which is typically done by waiting near the hardware store, then starting vigilante while purchasing a property. Instapasses are allowed, as those skip to fixed points within missions and cannot be manipulated into starting whatever the player desires."

Why the new glitch is ACE and some old glitces (duping to trick game that you did 6 assets, judges instapass, arguably replay glitches at all) are not ACE? And yes, I'm a casual runner. But I don't feel like I don't care or something like that. And definitely want to make my runs if rules will be clear.

2. Are we safe from full game skip (total lack of gameplay) with that explanation? I'm not an expert, but it looks like not. I was asking a few posts ago, but nobody answered yet. Will something like "no saves" or "no replays" guarantee impossibility of critical glitches. (even if this will bring us back to 1h:30m or so)

In the end I'm in favor to: 1) Simple rules which everybody can understand 2) Rules that will exclude the ¤possibility¤ to skip majority of the game.

I'm mostly a 'casual' runner and was pretty sad that Vice City looks dead with this new strat. First of all because the lack of gameplay. Pure glitching, random, frustraiting. Have no aspiration to run and not fun to watch. I understand that any% means any possibility and those runs are legit. But this looks like zero fun for me.

So, I think admins should try to find some way to 'renew' Vice City. To set rules that will be as simple as possible and result in interesting gameplay runs. I'm not an expert in all those glitches. But can we avoid the critical ones with something simple like "no saves" or "no replays". Will it prevent critical glitches that kill gameplay or not?

I wonna say that important thing is that rules should be simple and understandable by everyone. Also, ideally lead to interesting runs for viewers and runners. Can we do that?

Please join conversation for full game rules and also for some other questions: http://www.speedrun.com/warcraft/thread/l6o9m

There has been some questions about rules for WC3 both RoC and TFT. I wonna know your opinions. So please read this thread and vote. Any comments will be great as well.

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs.

Option A: RTA Option B: in-game

Pros for in-game timer:

1. No need of external timer. So, easier to run
2. Final time is shown on final screen so there will be no arguing about halved seconds or something like that in close results. Also easier to check.

Potential problem might be is any ways to glitch in-game timer. But I don't know about any possibilities as long as we forbid saves. So I feel like in-game timing might be more convenient.

Question #2: Movies (In order to clarify: Deleting movies directory will only affect cinematics, not cutscenes).

Option A: allow deleting movies directory Option B: forbid deleting movies directory

There are some known bugs with movies. First, they glitch at new OS and sometimes crash or freeze the game. Second, they glitch recording. As a common rule we shouldn't modify any original game files. But movies is not really a part of a game (I mean no gameplay, just video) and they can be deleted harmlessly. So, I think we definitely should allow that but wonna know your opinions first.

Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC)

Option A: Prologue must be included Option B: Prologue may be skipped

Argument for including is mostly that it is a part of the plot and the game.

Pros for skipping:

1. Even with the profile you can skip Prologue (there will be warning, but still you can skip). So in order to any% principle it doesn't look like necessary.
2. Probably prologue is not a very interesting part of a full-game run. We have enough rutine missions, so no need to expand it even more.
3. Full game run will be long as hell, so cut this 8 minutes :)

I feel like skipping prologue will be probably a bit better, but wonna your thoughts as well.

For comfort you may copy message below and choose your options

Question #1: Timing for individual level runs. [A/B] Question #2: Movies [A/B] Question #3: Prologue in full game runs (RoC) [A/B]

About prologue - it can be discussed. We can choose which way is more entertaining. As a common thought 'full game' should mean every campaign. But if more people think that prologue is not a part of a game (like tutorial or something) or simply not interesting/meaningful we can abandon it. I like your point that you can skip prologue with new profile, so it looks like optional.

About moving video files away from game folder - it's much more complicated. Usually you must not change any original game files for your advantage. But obviously we need to find some way to capture video for full game run. Modifying game files is the last thing that we should look for. I'll try to find some way to capture full game run within a few days

I feel like normal difficulty has more activity than hard. So, it seems reasonable to keep only normal categories in top and make hard difficulty for each campaign and full game as a sub category. Than there will be only 6 categories for RoC and 4 for TFT.

About timing:

I was thinking about in-game timer for individual level runs a bunch of times. I think that it would be better in many ways. But we need to figure out what to do with old runs (I don't care about my own, but other runners) and probably supplement rules with something like 'show end game screen' (which have the time) and 'forbid saves'.

1. Yes, Prologue included.
2. You may use any program you want. OBS is open sourse and very easy to set up. I would recommend it.

Sorry for a bit late response. I'm on vacation. Feel free to ask any further questions.