Hey, Sekanor there.

We had a discussion involving the main speedrunners of this game: me, iHaveLuigi7826 and TheMilkMan47. We put into question some of the main rules of the game.

The main rule that we redefined is the viability of the online version of the game. It has been previously decided by me and Frogyfro about one year ago that the offline, downloadable version of the game would be the only one that'd be authorized for speedrunning, because the online version has an unstable framerate number.

However, by experiencing with it a bit, mainly when we were testing the tab glitch (I'll talk about this later), we realised that the framerate number is unstable on online compared to the offline version, but the framerate itself is stable, and that the online version is faster. Realising that the main argument against the online version isn't viable, we decided to allow it, as it is also an official version of the game. Something important to precise too; the online version is faster than the offline version because its framerate is faster, so it saves time depending on the lenght of the run.

Two websites are authorized for the online version: http://runouw.com/games/sm63/ http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/498969

http://www.sheezyart.com/art/view/2096317/ would also be valid but it doesn't work anymore.

Any run played outside these two websites will be rejected.

Here is the problem now. Authorizing the online version creates a lot of new questions:

1. There's a glitch called Tab Glitch that involves opening a new tab right next to a wall to climb that wall. It is shown in this run in Bowser Trap #3 http://blog.naver.com/3124680/220516544828 made by iHaveLuigi7826. It works on Google Chrome, maybe Internet Explorer ? no one uses that Kappa but it doesn't work on Mozilla Firefox. It obviously only works on the online version, and this is a glitch that works in most of the online flash games. Because of it involving to create a tab in the browser, it has been banned before, because that was considered hardware manipulation, and also because online was banned. It will not be allowed in any of the main categories, should the tab glitch categories be added on speedrun.com (which involves that it doesn't break any of the general speedrun rules) or stay on the google doc leaderboard https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1omYaQvaZeb7iK5qY0V9e9jFYkLGMLbb0izuiPPfT6uA/edit#gid=1691914476 ?

2. A lot of runs have been previously done with the offline version of the game, which is slower than the online version, while the latter was banned. Should the offline version times done before the rule changement be converted to online timing, so we get the times that would've been if the run was done on the online version ?

3. I found a way to create an executable from the official .swf file that has the same framerate as the online version, but offline. Should this executable be allowed for speedruns ?

Come debate if you want to, we all do not agree with each other and every point and we thought that it would be interesting to get other people's opinion from here. Thanks in advance for reading, and for helping if you want to :)

I play on online because I can not download things if I have the option to play online. I think online should be allowed but I have not noticed framerate differences. I play on runouw.com so meh. I have never known about of the tab glitch and I don't plan on using it cuz I suck Kappa. anyway making it a different category might not be so good but making it a sub category like normal and hover only would help in my opinion. BTW as of typing this I just quit any% cuz 2 many runs gone to escape. I said I would stop after sub 12:30 so any run I get that can get that sub 12:30 dies on escape. This game is trying to trap me Kappa

My opinions:

1. Should be on speedrun.com because a decent amount of people disagree with the hardware manipulation argument.
2. Offline times that don't use Luigi Early should be scaled up.
3. Should be banned as it would allow an advantage that no official version has, Luigi Early with online frame rate.

what about runouw.com? that is the website I go to and I have never seen framerate changes. on most sites it is lower then normal.

They found the frame rate to be variable in comparison to the offline frame rate. It runs like 5% faster

Framerate differences are between the online and offline version.

Also, why I think that tab glitch should be considered hardware manipulation:

The glitch uses the navigator to work, which is proven by the fact that it doesn't work on Firefox but works on Google Chrome That means, if we allow tab glitch, we do allow glitches that requires a special function of the software used to work, so every glitch that happens with the navigator has to be allowed That definition, then, allows tab glitch, but also allow every flash command-related glitch, since it uses software functions to work as Tab Glitch does, so it allows some skips between Space and Escape when you can just use Macromedia Flash Player's Step Forward function to skip the bowser fight, rooms of escape, and some other things, which lowers the time by about 1m30/2m

So let's sum up the reasoning:

• Tab glitch is on the same level as the flash commands glitches, they both use their software to work. Tab glitch uses Chrome which runs SM63, while the Flash Commands are available with Macromedia Flash Player 8 which also runs SM63

one is banned and the other is authorized ? That, objectively-speaking, makes no sense at all.

At this point, we may allow both ? Because the flash command that skips sections isn't that terrible, well, that depends on opinions I guess. But there's still something.

If we allow flash commands, we also allow this: It uses a flash command to get the last storyline star in less than 1 second, which actually completes the game.

This would obviously be banned, right ? Yeah, the speedrun would become stupid after that. Although you can't disagree that it would still be a speedrun. It would only be banned because it's stupid and requires barely no skill.

What is the problem here ? I explained before that the tab glitch has to be treated the same way as the flash command glitches, because both work because of their respective software. If we only allow tab glitch, that means we don't follow that; the reasoning becomes incoherent.

If we say that flash commands are hardware manipulation, then tab glitch is also hardware manipulation. If we allow one, we allow both. If we ban one, we ban both. Seeing what flash commands can do, it seems hard to not consider that they're not hardware manipulation, as they do have a big influence on the code of the game (teleporting to another level, you get a shine instantly without collecting it). Tab glitch is only a smaller effect of that, but it still is one (changes Mario's position in the game code).

The big difference is that the Tab Glitch makes the speedrun more interesting. But interesting does not mean viable. It would be very interesting to allow infinite explosives in a Ocarina of Time speedrun, to see what could be done. But in absolutely no way that's viable as a speedrunning category on speedrun.com.

Actually, in the old strawpoll, 5 people were agreeing with that hardware manipulation definition, the number of people agreeing with that isn't so low

Also Milk, your point #3 is absolutely true, it probably won't be allowed.

I am confused about milk's 3rd statement. The part that says: "luigi early with online frame rate." can someone explain that to me? and if it is about the fact that the online version can have luigi in it that is not always the case. not all online versions have him right from the get-go. From thw websites that do have this you cant get into the secrets and skip the star doors by going through the passage ways so any% would be impossible. (techniacally not cuz 33 shines) I might just be reading it wrong so can someone explain it to me pls?

Luigi Early is a "trick" that shouldn't be possible in any of the official versions. I will explain that: On some demo versions, you can start with Luigi and do not need 32 star coins to unlock him. You have a red M button and a green L button in the file select menu. This has been removed in the official full versions, that are the only versions available for speedrunning.

However, even though it has been removed, you can still use these buttons. In fact, they weren't removed, but moved up in black space that is above the file select menu; you should not be able to see it. Resize your macromedia flash player window up and you'll be able to see these buttons.

This is only possible on the offline version, because you can't resize the window with the online version, even though the buttons still exist.

Online version has a framerate advantage over the offline version; it's faster.

If we use an executable version that runs with the online fps, by resizing the window, we'll be able to use the luigi early trick, hence why "luigi early with online framerate".

I hope that explanation was clear enough.

ok. I hope I read everything right. so if you play as luigi then you get the online framerate? still a bit confusing but mainly I just want to know if online will be banned or not because I run online and can not download games cuz dad.

Online will not be banned. I was responding to Sekanor's question about whether a downloadable version with the online framerate should be allowed. I said that it should not, because it would allow you to both 1. Do Luigi Early and 2. Have online framerate. You can do Luigi Early in offline only, so allowing the faster online framerate and Luigi Early wouldn't make sense as no official version allows it.

"If we allow one, we allow both. If we ban one, we ban both." I disagree with this. I think that flash commands are not banned for being hardware manipulation, but rather for reasons similar to why the CHEAT Code is banned.

Then, in this case, you should ban the Tab Glitch for similar reasons to why the cheat codes are banned, because tab glitch is a smaller effect that the influence of a software can have on the game, but it stays one of these effects, explained why above ^

"Hardware manipulation" is here, an arbitrary notion that as a community, we do have to define, to avoid the utilisation of "cheat codes".

The Cheat code is banned not because it is hardware manipulation (it clearly isn't) but because of the effects it has on the game. Flash commands have similar effects, whereas tab glitch does not. I really don't care which category is called any%, just that we can agree it should be on the leaderboards OpieOP

I thought you meant the cheatS codes actually, I see your point.

Won't waste time answering this though, IHL figured out a way to do it without tabs. You can get similar effects by only resizing the window. Basically that means that the tab glitch works with lag and doesn't directly modifies the code, which changes everything.

I wonder what we should do now, do we have to keep 2 categories for tab glitch/no tab glitch? That would probably feel a bit stupid at this point, but that's my opinion there.

Also, are there arguments for or against time conversions ? What comes to my mind is that it would be hard to get accurate times, also it would make my 100% one or two minutes faster than Milkman's even though it actually isn't

I kind of already knew it was just lag xD. Keep two categories, although if we want to vote on which one is actually any% that's fine. Scale times, I really don't care if your 100% run is faster.

This thread is old and people have ran this more recently

So, what has been decided for framerates?

Can I find anywhere the script which unlocks the framerate for the offline version? If its a thing. Should I run the game on the online version?

online is allowed so if you want to you can use that

Oh thanks : )

Is there a way to get the online fps on the offline version ?

I believe there was an updated download with the Korean language that has the online FPS even though it is a download but I do not know where to get it. I may be wrong about the entire thing though

There is an offline version with the faster FPS. I'll put it in the resources section.