Stage 1-1 can be manipulated, not perfectly, but you can have certain possible scenarios. The logic is similar to Super Bomberman 1 (SNES): https://www.speedrun.com/super_bomberman/thread/gc6up https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KPJNa2rCCGfxqIIGlQZuUXpOH8sfXFnA/view
My guide to manipulating stage 1-1 (Tested on BizHawk and Beetle Saturn): https://drive.google.com/file/d/18giUpjmeG9o_ouDZAfduQvMYFUfwff3U/view
I don't have the console, but I'm sure it will work too. If anyone can try it would be very helpful.
Going to hopefully try this out today but I made a spreadsheet to help identify which pattern you get a little faster. Hope it's helpful.
I can check on console sometime this weekend. But one thing Fisel, is your Google Drive document set to allow anyone with the link to look at it? Because I cannot access the link you posted. Or is it an issue with me? I can access Enbyzee's document.
Try these links, let me know if it worked for you with the first or the second: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PeLivnVoz9jstXf6tr4uzP5VlrF9Mx_o/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/18giUpjmeG9o_ouDZAfduQvMYFUfwff3U/view?usp=sharing
Nevermind, they work. Some odd issue with my phone trying to use drive and can't. Opening them as a new tab works though. I'll also see what I come up with by using the in game reset rather than the console reset as well. I tried this in the past but could never get any consistent stage but the again I'm bad at this kind of stuff.
I tried this on the emulator but I don't think I quite understand the directions. Wasn't able to get it.
You basically smash start button once you reset the console/emulator. The thought process is if you start the game on the same frame after startup (I mean the same frame every time you play) you will get the same level layout. This works on NES and at least 1 of the SNES Bomberman games, but I've never got it to work on Mega or Saturn Bomberman, but I didn't do any scientific testing. Also I generally don't like RNG manipulation for speed running myself so that's why I personally didn't delve too much into it myself.
Super Bomberman 3 and Super Bomberman 5 can also be rigged with the same logic, but these are more difficult to rig (many inputs, full mashing). Super Bomberman 1 is the easiest to perform and understand.
Saturn Bomberman, I would say that it is not so complicated to manipulate: You must press and hold the START button, while pressing the button perform the reset (you must not release the START). When the Main Menu appears, you can release the button START. Wait for the voice of "Saturn Bomberman" to be heard, at which point mashing the START, A, C. These 3 buttons should not be pressed together, but each one independently. What I do is press START with my middle finger (left hand), press A with my index finger (right hand), press C with my middle finger (right hand). It is likely that on some occasions you will press START/A or START/C together, but the idea is to press the buttons on each frame. When the Main Menu ends, an animation appears, that can be skipped by pressing and holding START. With that it should work on emulator or console.
My English is not very good, I'm sorry if some things are not understood.
Thank you both for explaining this again! It does make sense, and I may as well give it a go at some point. Fisel your English is great if you wrote all of that without the help of a translator. I admire anyone who can speak multiple languages. I've tried and failed to learn Japanese, Korean, and French. It's really hard to retain unless you're using it every single day.
So the tl;dr is basically what Fisel already said. Hold start on Saturn reset until you get to main menu. Let go to let the Title screen animation play. Then mash start + A + C after you hear Saturn Bomberman (Mash the buttons alternatively, not all at the same time) until you get the loading message before the first level. This is the best possible way to get the same 1-1 layouts over time.
Some things I learned while testing: Using C instead of start at menu didn’t change anything Extra inputs do not change RNG (previous two are why mashing buttons works) RNG starts at game boot, not Saturn boot. So you can skip Saturn boot sequence but don't have to. Skipping the opening cutscene at different times affects RNG (but it doesn't matter because you can hold start to skip it totally for 100% consistent times). Skipping title screen animation DOES affect RNG. RNG is NOT affected by when you select “Game Mode” and “Normal Game” (but for the purposes of “mashing” it doesn’t matter). Surprisingly, going into options DOES NOT change RNG as far as I could tell. So the only things that affect RNG: Time that title screen animation finishes (which is a non-issue if you let it play all the way). Time since game boot that you press start when the title screen says "Press Start Button" Time since game boot (or time since you pressed start at "Press Start Button" but for our purposes it doesn't matter) when the Story cutscene ends and the game starts loading the first level.
I didn't test but I assume this means if you press start at "Press start button" on the same frame every time, then let the cutscene play out, you would always get the same stage with relative easy consistency. However of course due to the rules of the speedrun, this is a moot point since you need to save time by skipping the cutscene.
Also as a final word, this sucks for me in particular because I like using "Option B" control scheme, which while possible to still get a consistent level layout, is much harder to do then "just mash buttons."
Also....also, the In-game reset (You can reset in game by pressing A + B + C + Start and it will take you back to the main menu) does not work for this strat, you must reset the Saturn/emulator. The RNG seems to be tied to the "time from game boot."
Alright, it looks like I got it to work for me as well. It's nice to know where all of the power-ups are in the first stage basically at a glance. I'm probably going to update my document to include optimal routes for each path. Does the document seem helpful for you all? It helped me a lot when I just tried it.
If we manipulate 1-1 to be 1 of 10 possibilities, does that mean those paths themselves will then stay the same? For example:
1-1a > 1-2a > 1-3a >... 5-SBa 1-1b > 1-2b > 1-3b >... 5-SBb
Or does only the first level stay consistent? For example: 1-1a > 1-2c > 1-3g >... 5-SBa
If it stays consistent, that would mean we could theoretically memorize the pathing required for each string of levels based on what level we start with. I say theoretically because we'd have to memorize roughly 370 stages in total. 37 stages with block layouts x 10 possible routes = 370 stage variations total. I'm not including boss fight patterns because I don't know enough about them.
Everything is tied to time (measured in frames from game boot). As far as you talking about 10ish different layout possibilities, that's only because of different frame timings. If you start on the same frame (at both instances of RNG that were dealing with) you will always get the same stage. Now doing this is pretty hard for most so it is best to memorize several levels.
As far as other stages, I am going to assume it is also tied to frame rates, but it is NOT the case that "all stages are set in stone" from the beginning. The frame you end the first stage on (or more likely the frame that the second stage loads after you select it on the map) will determine the layout of the second stage.
Also as an aside the color of Tirra's coming out of the egg isn't determined on level load, it is determined based on timing as soon as you touch it (or maybe it's when you reveal the egg, no way to say for sure), as I've gotten the same level layout with different color Tirra's.
Anyway back to the original point, if you happen to beat the same 1-1 in the exact same time multiple times, I imagine your 1-2 layout will be the same. This strat is used in NES Bomberman to max out your firepower on the first stage quickly (well you die on the same frame instead of finishing the level but similar situation). For the purposes of this game, it is theoretically possible, but not likely able to do consistently.
So color of the Dino is determined when you touch/hatch the egg. You can use this info to plan a 1-1 route for a specific dino.
Although I don't plan on doing further testing in regards to this, there may be bias for specific colors depending on the layout (depending on your level RNG I mean). I wasn't doing frame perfect testing this time, but when touching the egg at different times (loading save states) I would regularly get pink, yellow, or purple. I would only get blue a couple of times, and never saw green. This is only an example for my testing and I am not saying it is like this for all 1-1 layouts, or I just got real unlucky and like I said this isn't what I would call scientific testing the way I was doing it, so take this part with a grain of salt. This bias (if there is one) may also just be determined when you start the game (I only thing up this hypothetical because I've played this game so much) because I've noticed during a Normal Mode session, you seem to get the same 1 or 2 color dinos a lot (i.e. If i get a pink and then lose it, it seems like I have a high chance to get a pink when I find another egg). Again, this whole paragraph is hypothetical and I have no way to test this.
So going for a specific dino is more realistic if you can get it down to getting the same 1 or 2 layouts that you know the powerups for (I have 2 common ones I get the way I've been doing it). Finally for new people reading this, know that this is like "endgame" speedrunning, meaning don't focus on this if you're still learning the run. This is just information I am finding fun to try to figure out.
Ok, I have been trying some things and they are the following:
Stage 1-1 I have tried with a stage (05.png) from my possible stages file. I made a fixed pattern for this stage:
Stage 1-2 If in stage 1-1 the clown on the right dies, there are 2 possible stages for Stage 1-2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q0IRyscW1dHMVJUuJlAI8X0fzKB0S4Ri/view?usp=sharing
If in 1-1 the clown on the right doesn't die, there are 2 other possible stages for Stage 1-2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11YUyCheLklMepSoNqusLV9ZpO6JvGaRb/view?usp=sharing
For Stage 1-2 (Dead Clown) 01 / '1-2_DC01.jpg', I made a fixed pattern:
Stage 1-3 Manipulating 1-3 is more difficult, I have tried my fixed pattern of 1-2 and still don't keep a possible stage detected for 1-3. I have 22 possible stage images for 1-3: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Hm2seOhP5lxgcg4fbPmkG8lxq_iAsdw4/view?usp=sharing
Even with 22 images detected, there is a high probability that it will not match, even if it meets the fixed pattern of 1-1 and 1-2. For me this is enough, if I find anything else I will let you know.
