Question for discussion: what glitches should we consider as "major" glitches for the purposes of defining a "no major glitches" category?

After some chat on Discord, we determined that there was some interest in creating a possible "no major glitches" category for Ori. However, in order to do this, we must reach some agreement on what constitutes a "major" glitch. The overall goals of this category are roughly as follows:

• Provide a less "broken" category of the game for people who want something closer to the intended experience.
• Provide a category that is substantially distinct from other categories of the game.
• Provide a category where movement optimization and basic gameplay are highlighted more than specific tricks.

In order to achieve these goals, some glitches will be disallowed. The question is, which glitches will we consider major? To start the discussion, here is a list of glitches which are and are not disallowed in my "glitchless" category. This is NOT a list of rules for the proposed "no major glitches" category.

DISALLOWED:

• Save glitches (saving and reloading to skip or regain control during a cutscene)
• Save anywhere (storing the ability menu and learning an ability to save without a Soul Link)
• Save drops (saving in midair to respawn Ori on lower ground)
• Teleport anywhere (storing the teleport menu to teleport without a Spirit Well)
• Keystone duplication (dying at a specific point to cause keystones to respawn in the world and in your inventory)
• Double bashing (performing two bashes two frames apart on the same enemy to follow it in midair)
• Out of bounds (anything that places Ori outside the clearly defined physical boundaries of the game world)
• Clipping through any solid object or boundary
• Using Bash to pass through the small gap in the rocks in Sorrow Pass

ALLOWED:

• Bash gliding (preserving the horizontal speed of a Bash by releasing all directional input)
• Dash gliding (same mechanism as Bash gliding, but with Dash followed by a jump)
• Disabling the UI (press alt-U)
• Moving enemies into advantageous positions using normal movement or Bash
• Using enemy projectiles or something other than the intended means (e.g. Stomp) to break a barrier
• Manipulating a level up to achieve a timely health/energy refill or damage enemies

It seems to be generally agreed that save glitches (i.e. using Rekindle or learning an ability to regain control during a cutscene) should NOT be considered a "major" glitch. However, please feel free to share your thoughts on any and all of these glitches. "Just go all the way glitchless" is a valid response.

I would say that cliping through the small gap and keystone dupe don't seem like major glitches to me the rest of the list of forbidden glitches seems fine otherwise. Also Would Rocket jump be considered a major glitch. It is a very fun glitch to execute and has a bunch of ways to be used. I would like to see it in this categorie as not banned.

All the propositions sound good to me. Will be happy to return to Forlorn.

Major glitches: Menu Storage, which leads to Save Anywhere and Teleport Anywhere Keystone duping Door warping

These glitches all abuse glitches caused by mishaps in core game logic (i.e. how it treats pauses, and how it treats loading/unloading assets). Most other glitches are caused by unintended game mechanics, or intentional game mechanics being used in unforseen ways. I.e. save dropping is all intended mechanisms, though the result is obviously unintended.

Not technically a major glitch, but probably worth banning: Double bashing

Removing double bashing makes some of the harder strategies slower but more palpable. It's worth asking ourselves, though. Double bashing is hard, but is it harder than doing Sorrow Bash any other way? Does that make it worth banning?

There will be no forlorn... Never

I support the use of Vulajin's glitchless rules for NMG. While you could debate whether "small" things like double bashing (that you can do accidentally) are a "major" glitch or not, removing dbash (aside from accidentally doing one for no benefit) makes for a more friendly category for people who don't want to be forced into KBM rebinding for competitive times.

I'm inclined to support removing save dropping, if only because it serves to differentiate the route from others (having air dash in ginso since you're forced to get cflame for swamp). Then, for consistency, I'm fine with not being able to rekindle through cutscenes... the only long one in any% NMG is the sunstone, and maybe at that point we can use a nice break.

Edit: also wanted to point out -- in my opinion, the door warp glitch should also be banned in this category.

Edit2: Also, if it makes more sense, maybe the category we're looking for is glitchless instead of NMG with "minor" glitches defined as major ones just for the sake of the name.

Edit3: I don't think rocket jumping should be banned in glitchless, personally, but I can understand it being gone for consistency.

I suport dorwarping beeing a major glitch

I support having plain glitchless, honestly. I wondered why there was no glitchless when I joined the community, and now more than ever does having a glitchless category make sense.

The glitchless rules as they are seem good to me, though door warp should be included in the final rule copy as being considered a glitch.

Rocket jump is cool but I think it's a glitch.

Let's just go with "Glitchless". It's something I hear non-runners often want to see, it doesn't seem too different anyway, and it will save some headache over what is or isn't "major". We can just ask "is this a glitch?" and the answer can be a simple yes or no, to determine whether it is or isn't acceptable to use in the run.

There was no glitchless because the route would literally not be any different than all skills. But scince All Skills is now oficially a fucking broken piece of steaming garbage filled with shit (Yes Thats what I think about TA) There is actualy a difference between routes.

There is literally two things I want to change it that ruleset to make this a no major glitches and that is allow rocketjump and disalow Doorwarping. That would effectively not change anything about the ruleset and would actualy let us do 1 not major glitch. You could argue cliping through the ground in BRB beeing a not major glitch but I think getting pushed through the floor then doing some simple blindmovement and getting out at a completely different place seems very major.

Door warping didn't exist at the time I made the glitchless rules, but it would definitely be banned. I'd personally consider it a "major" glitch as well.

I also support having a plain glitchless category. I feel NMG was a good idea, but at this point it's difficult to decide on what is and isn't a major glitch. Simple way around that is just to disallow them all and go glitchless.

Changed my mind on Rocket Jump, thought it would be fine but in the end, it allows Ori to move in a way unintended, so it's a glitch.

Current rules for glitchless are all good for me.

I don't know why but I would be up for a glitchless category now (or no major glitches). It might also stop all the debate about all skills and TA :P

I'd like to see iceless in so maybe make the special level ups a major glitch <w<

I want a category where both "- Provide a category where movement optimization and basic gameplay are highlighted more than specific tricks." and "- A category that do a good job of showcasing both the content of the game and also many different tricks." are true.. Sounds like No major glitches fits the bill. Leve double bash in there, its not that hard to do anymore, maybe do a guide on the forum so people can learn it, or a troubleshooting thread... Its probobly easier to do sorrows bash that way then any other. As to what elements of the game the category should complete, i like: "all world events"

I like the idea of a Glitchless category. Mainly, I support the reason Chunk gave. It provides a simple flow chart to determine if something is or isn't allowed:

Is it a glitch? If yes: It's banned; If no: It's not banned

I think Vulajin's posted ruleset is a good ruleset for a glitchless/NMG route and I support it as a category. I have no strong opinion on whether we make it glitchless or NMG, I think they were end up being functionally very similar either way. As far as some of the contentious glitches are concerned:

1. As far as I can tell both double bashing and rocket jumping are an unintended effect of game physics. I think either both need to be banned or both need to be legal, I don't see an argument for one and not the other. For the sake of "glitchless" I'd say ban them both.

2. Clipping through the crack in sorrow I'd say is a glitch, but not a major one. If we go with Glitchless take it out. If we go with NMG keep it in.

3. Save dropping and door warping both seem like pretty major glitches to me, id support their removal.

In my opinion Vulajin's ruleset sounds great. I would like to see it (or a similar ruleset) become the rules for an official NMG/Glitchless Category.

We have added Glitchless Any% as a miscellaneous category on the leaderboard. The rules used are those from my definition above, plus door warping and rocket jumping are banned. Clipping through the narrow gap in Sorrow Pass is still banned.

Feel free to use this thread for discussion and feedback.

An update just in case anybody looks at this forum thread in the future: Using the narrow gap in Sorrow Pass is now allowed in Glitchless Any% due to it being too similar to another trick which we decided should be allowed on its own merits. Stomp cancels are also allowed.

Doing a regular Any% run and submitting it as Glitchless is not allowed. You should know better than that :)