Another new form of menu storage was recently found that could potentially have a large impact on a number of categories, and as such, it's time for a rule change discussion. This thread will determine the legality of this trick in various categories. Even if you have discussed this on Discord, please write your opinions here for a formal record. As we want to hear the thoughts of everyone in the community, please contribute regardless of your preferred categories or perceived level of experience.

WHAT IS FORGE STACKING?

Forge Stacking (FS), so named because its first use was to duplicate the Forge menu, is a type of menu storage distinct from Main Menu Storage (MMS). To perform it, press Esc in-game to open the pause menu, then click "Exit to Main Menu" and press Esc at the same time. This opens the confirmation screen at the same time as the pause menu closes, putting the game in a state where you can interact with the world while it is still paused. This allows the player to interact with an object (including a core) any number of times. In the case of cores, the player will add a core to the inventory for every interact input without it despawning until the player unpauses, which allows the player to finish the game as early as the first visit to the Bastion from the Wharf District.

WHAT'S SO IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS?

The existence of Forge Stacking has the most ramifications for Any% No MMS. Since this type of storage is not considered MMS, it being allowed in this category would make it functionally identical to Any%, where the trick would presumably be allowed as a matter of course.

The issue is foggier in other categories. On one hand, the various restrictions of the other categories should be sufficient to keep from being broken by FS. The trick could also open up interesting routing options for current and developing categories by duplicating a core a certain number of times or having precise experience routing by duping a different object. On the other hand, the trick could potentially be more trouble than it is worth, as it could add cause confusion and a perceived double standard for allowing one type of menu storage and not another (MMS is banned in most categories). In addition, if future distinct types of menu storage are found when there is no blanket ban on menu storage, this discussion may need to happen again (the way it's happening again right now).

DISCUSSION SO FAR

This is not an exhaustive list of options, and we are open to further ideas. However, these are the ideas that have been put forth so far:

Any%: The community so far has seen no issue with allowing FS in Any%, as it is meant to be the category that involves completing the game with no restrictions.

Any% No MMS: Some runners suggested merging Any% No MMS with the pure Any% category. This would merge the leaderboards and leave one category with no restrictions to reflect the changes in Any% over the past couple years. Alternatively, another suggestion is to ban FS in Any% No MMS. This was suggested as taking the form of either a "No MMS/FS" category or a blanket "No Menu Storage" category. This would keep intact a category that is considered by some to be the most beginner friendly and welcoming. A further suggestion along this path is to drop the Any% moniker from this category, to simply "No MMS/FS" or "No MS," respectively, to reflect how distinct the route now is from pure Any%.

Other Categories: As described above, the main issue here is whether FS should be allowed in the categories where it would not destroy the route. Some runners suggested that it be allowed by default with potential for later bans, while others expressed concerns about clarity in the rules and potential future types of menu storage. There was one suggestion to take the issue on a case-by-case basis, so discussion here can be big picture or category-specific.

My thoughts:

Any% should allow FS, since it allows everything and should allow everything (except jaunting).

Turn Any% no MMS into simply No Menu Storage. The route doesn't change, the rules become more succinct, and we don't have to worry about having this discussion a third time.

I'm less sure of my opinion on other categories. My instinct is a blanket ban on menu storage outside of Any% to keep rules consistent and, again, to put this discussion to rest for good. It would affect Distillery Storage in ASL, but that wouldn't be the end of the world. But I could be swayed on this.

in my opinion

Any% should allow everything that doesn't require specific launch options a.k.a. everything besides jaunting

Any% no MMS I'm fine turning it into any% no menu storage. Alternatively I've read some suggestions of just banning the use of menus entirely in this category I'm fine with that as well but the first option is probably better.

ASL the rule of no duping any items makes FS almost useless as it's only other use is stacking buildings which doesn't seem too bad

AW/DC/AIC I feel these categories have enough restrictions to not break from FS so it should be fine allowing FS in these categories

Any%: I love to be able to see how fast a game can be beat from start to finish on a new save. True any% does that except for jaunting (which is outside game help, so it doesn't count). Having a no restrictions category seems like something every game should have to me.

Any% NMMS: I would argue that this category is good for the community to keep. Its an easy to run category that also isn't very long. I would drop the Any% part and make it either "No Main Menu" or "No Menu Storage" since it has to many restrictions to feel like an Any% category.

ASL: Keep it being playing through every level from start to finish in any way possible. If you want to level 10 by duping items, go for it, but all cores should be picked up from their own levels.

AW/DC/AIC: Since these have restrictions/goals they are mostly untouched by the new trick. The reason why i made/played DC with Haos was to play the Dreams and the Challenges, not to get to them in a "legit" way. DC should allow the new trick in my opinion. Same goes for AIC and maybe AW.

My thoughts: - Any% No MMS gets merged with Any%. I feel way less strongly about this now that we have a No MMS runner in the form of spm, but since I’ve been the main guy in arguing this, I’ll write down what I’ve said about it:

• The category remains short, easy to learn, a good category for newcomers. There aren’t any real runkillers, the trick isn’t cancerous like MMS was by making you play blind and is really easy to do. I know there’s a lot of people who come into the game with NMMS. But I would definitely argue this is because Bastion is a gateway game, and most of our runners have this game as their introduction to speedrunning. Snowy’s tutorial says it’s an Any% one, and most newcomers come looking to run what is the most popular category name outside of speedrunning. Looke, for example, was looking at the Any% leadearboard when comparing his times, and not at the NMMS one.

• I don’t see a real reason why we should cap core duping to grabbing two cores. In my opinion, if we’re willing to allow grabbing more than a one for one relationship on cores, capping this to “two” feels incredibly artificial. We’ve even looked into grabbing three cores multiple times, with no one suggesting it’d become an entirely new category.

• NMMS isn’t the only category we have to “play more of the game”. There’s plenty of categories nowadays, all of which range very wildly in duration. They aren’t “Any% Categories”, but at this point, I don’t think this is either.

• I have seen some amount of people talk about how this would be “deleting years’ worth of category history”. I disagree with this completely. The old runs are still going to be on the leaderboard anyway, and aren’t going anywhere.

• Above all, it feels to me like we're trying to preserve a route for the sake of it, trying to shield it from any kind of meaningful development no matter what. And I don't think that's healthy in a speedrun setting

- Any% definitely becomes FS, regardless of what happens with NMMS. I don’t think anyone is willing to argue this.

- Assuming we end up banning FS from the current Any% NMMS, I’d like to see Any% YMMS preserved somewhere in misc tbh. I don’t think any of us is gonna do more runs of it, so it might be more effort than it’s worth, but I still think MMS offers a way of playing the game that’s very different from any other category, being forced to play with the menu on the screen and relying on sound queues. It’s not like I feel strongly at all about this though, and if it’s more trouble than it’s worth to preserve it, then so be it.

- ASL rules remain the same, stating that it’s core duping that is forbidden. If we find strats to dupe another item, be it for experience, upgrades, or whatever, that actually saves time, I’d welcome it.

- DC/AIC allow FS. As for AW, I’d leave that up to the people who actually run it. I remember looking at the route when we first found this and not being able to do anything with it though.

Any%: Allows FS. Should generally allow everything.

Any% NMMS: Bans FS. Happy medium between a totally broken Any% and somewhat vanilla ASL.

ASL: Bans FS. Intended to be somewhat vanilla.

DC/AW/Culture/AIC: Allows FS. Fun categories should have their custom goal and objectives achieved asap. Could technically vary from category to category.

I think that Any% should allow everything as it does in most games. I think Any% No MMS should become No MS. For everything else I think that Forge Stacking should be allowed if it does not destroy the meaning of the category, which is more for the actual runners to decide.

Edited post:

I agree with Haos on Any% and Any% NMMS. ASL should remain unchanged for now, this trick doesn't break the spirit of ASL it seems, and it allows us to retain the Fast Tazal trick.

I've never run the game, but in my mind having both no holds barred Any%, and rebranding NMMS to No Menu Storage feels like the best idea. It's cool to have a sort of "16 star" level run as a good entry point for new runners/watchers where you have a chill mix of glitches and gameplay. I can appreciate the "purity" argument, but arbitrary-feeling category lines will always be a thing in any speedrun that's not pure Any% (and often even when it is), ultimately it's down to what people want to run, and I've seen waaay worse category descriptions lol

Not familiar enough with the longer categories to know the impact it would have there, so gonna stay out of that discussion :)

This discussion happened throughout GDQ and that was a rough time for me as I was helping in the Brazilian restreaming of the event. This also made me forgot about the discussion as i would've posted earlier.

About the discussion on itself, i like Haos proposal, which aligns very well with the rest of opinions voiced so far.

I'm just curious as what would happen with Destillery Menu trick on the ASL run. Does that glitch in particular counts as a menu storage? Or does it have a different definition? It's not something that impacts me directly, but would impact the leaderboard around me. It's something i don't understand a lot and any clarification on the matter would be appreciated. Either way, it being categorized as MS or not, i'm still in favour of restricting Menu Storage on ASL.

If all menu storage is banned in ASL, Distillery Storage would be banned. We store the confirmation screen, which is considered menu storage under our current definition.