United Statesloading times being longer wouldn't be a problem. It makes loading times shorter- as in, you will go faster than is normally possible and gain an unfair advantage.
That being said, we are having discussions of how to remove loading times entirely, since there is already a bunch of consistency just among 3ds models and even among the same models. If that plan works out, we could possibly allow NTR streaming.
Isn't it a 1/12 chance for things to happen on the same frame as the coin is changing color?
Bright 24 frames medium 8 frames dark 8 frames medium 8 frames
48 / 4 = 12
I was kicking around ideas with PixelPerfectRuns (Marihour WR Holder) the other day and he did mention the idea of two tabs. I think the problem with this is that it would just move the original 3 marihour runs to the legacy tab and then everyone else would be on the other one, and split competition in an already seldom run category. He proposed this since he didn't really want to see the category change (removing swap times), but for most people the category already has changed, I.E. his runs using flash carts.
Personally I really just want to see how everyone's times compare as the sum of their 6 games; I feel like it makes the most sense. We don't have to allow JP, that's not really a huge deal, I just thought it didn't make sense when English is faster and VC English is even faster. But yeah, open to more ideas and discussion.
Edit: I didn't quite express my thoughts on the 2 tabs fully. Some people would want a full legacy tab following darbians rules, and some people would want to keep the current rules as the legacy and have the second tab for removing game swap times. In the first scenario, the legacy tab would have 2 names on it and probably never get ran again, and then the second tab is still not equalized for competition. In the second scenario... there's like a couple brand new runs that go on it? I guess you could put some of the same runs on both tabs. But if we're going to make a legacy and modern tab I don't think it makes sense to have a halfway updated ruleset on the legacy one. But then the full legacy one would just have 2 runs on it. Idk haha
Making this post to point out inconsistencies/areas in Marihour rules that are not in the best interest of runners.
My understanding is that the current Marihour rules have two goals in mind: Preserve darbian's category that he invented, while also making the category as accessible as possible.
The problem is that, as it stands, the rules are in bad shape for both of these. The category was opened up to allow other platforms to play on, which is great! I think it is too much to ask to require people to own an FDS in order to participate on this leaderboard. Where things went wrong is that certain factors weren't taken into account, which actually now make playing by the original darbian rules the worst way to play this category.
Playing on original hardware has the slowest loading times (FDS, N64), slowest game swaps (actually having to swap them out, compared to flash cartridge or especially emulator), and the most lag (SM64). If we're going to allow various platforms to play on, we need to equalize them by removing loading times and game swaps. Even after doing that, emulator is still going to have an advantage for SM64 (VC probably not as much, since slower bootup?), but this is more negligible than the way things currently are. Emulator and VC are also colloquially worse to play on for SM64 (Look at all the 0 and 1 star WR's), so I don't really mind that.
In regards to accessibility, there are inconsistencies in which versions are allowed, as well as the current ruleset being pay-to-win, in a sense. Currently, The Japanese versions of games aren't allowed. It's possible darbian initially specified this because SMW JP saves a couple seconds from save textboxes, and SM64 has a widely perpetuated idea that JP version says 2.7 seconds, but that's not true. Ultimately I think darbian just specified this so it was clear exactly what he was using, and so people could compare directly to him by using the same versions.
I'm confused why when things were opened up to allow VC and emulator, JP versions were still banned? Currently, you're not allowed to use JP SM64 for your run (which is a number of frames slower than English), but you are allowed to use English VC/emulator, which is a number of seconds faster than N64. This is inconsistent and things should be opened up to allow these versions too.
The area where this category is pay-to-win currently, is in game swapping. Because game swap times are included, one of the best ways to improve your time in this category is to throw more hardware at the problem. Get audio and video switchers so you can switch the feeds faster. Buy multiple consoles even so you can accomplish switches faster. Play on flash cartridges so you can do faster game swaps and have faster loading times (this is even mentioned directly in the marihour guide). Our ruleset should focus on comparing what happens inside the game, not outside. We should improve our times by playing better, not rigging our setups better. There will always be some aspect of this in all speedruns (having savestates to practice with, having the games to play in the first place), but in this case it's easily avoidable by removing game swaps from timing. We don't really need to be speedrunning swaps and slamming our cartridges and controllers around anyhow.
Alright. All of that being said, I just want to make the ruleset consistent, accessible, and be about our skill and execution in the games, instead of other outside factors that we can easily minimize. The pentathlon ruleset already handles this well, removing loading times and game swaps. Why don't we do the same? The main argument is that the more we change it the less it is like darbian's original category. It would be one thing if we always maintained darbian's original rules, but we haven't- and even worse, playing with darbian's original rules has the biggest disadvantage in the current ruleset. I motion that we incorporate all of the following into the rules:
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Allow JP versions (doesn't make sense why they're banned, but faster non-original versions are allowed)
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Remove loading times (currently, you are punished for playing on original FDS hardware)
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Remove game swaps, give a 25 second window to do so (FDS has quite a slow bootup, do we allow 25 seconds before the BIOS screen is shown? Otherwise it's still quite rushed)
If we go through with this, the final question would be should we start timing in SMB1 from movement? At that point your total time would just be the sum of your 6 individual runs, with the exact same timing methods as their respective leaderboards, which seems absolutely ideal to me. I would be willing to do all the legwork to retime the runs on the leaderboard.
We would still be playing the games in release order, and still be playing the category at all, which I think is the most important part of preserving darbian's category. Thanks for reading! - Kosmic
Hi everybody! Hope y'all are doing well. I know new emulator rules probably sounds scary but I think everyone will agree it's a positive thing.
A Specific Version of Mesen Will Be Allowed
Mesen emulator is a good emulator but has been banned for a while due to some features which made moderation tricky. Threecreepio has made a special version that we can allow for the leaderboards though!
The NES version is available here
Good news, there is also a SNES version in the works. The current version had no L+R handling whatsoever so Creepio is working on implementing that (can we give a big thanks to Threecreepio!!)
next up:
Input Displays and Frame Counters
For emulators which have input display and frame counter features, having these turned on is required. For the record, I know many use Nestopia and it doesn't have these features. On Creepio's Mesen version this will already be taken care of for you. But in the case you're using another approved emulator, be sure to turn on input display and frame counter.
and finally:
Lost Levels Categories Moving to the Main Boards
We've decided to move "Both Endings (FDS)" and "All Stages (FDS)" from the category extensions leaderboard, to the Main Leaderboard. These categories are essentially Any% D-4 and Warpless D-4 but for the original version of the game, so there's really no reason they shouldn't be main categories. Hopefully people take some interest in these great SMB2-J categories (I'm guilty too) and have some fun playing them!
That's it everybody! Let us know your thoughts, say thank you to Threecreepio, and have a good day!
- SMB1+2J Mod Team
Hi everybody! Hope y'all are doing well. I know new emulator rules probably sounds scary but I think everyone will agree it's a positive thing.
A Specific Version of Mesen Will Be Allowed
Mesen emulator is a good emulator but has been banned for a while due to some features which made moderation tricky. Threecreepio has made a special version that we can allow for the leaderboards though!
The NES version is available here
Good news, there is also a SNES version in the works. The current version had no L+R handling whatsoever so Creepio is working on implementing that (can we give a big thanks to Threecreepio!!)
next up:
Input Displays and Frame Counters
For emulators which have input display and frame counter features, having these turned on is required. For the record, I know many use Nestopia and it doesn't have these features. On Creepio's Mesen version this will already be taken care of for you. But in the case you're using another approved emulator, be sure to turn on input display and frame counter.
and finally:
Lost Levels Categories Moving to the Main Boards
We've decided to move "Both Endings (FDS)" and "All Stages (FDS)" from the category extensions leaderboard, to the Main Leaderboard. These categories are essentially Any% D-4 and Warpless D-4 but for the original version of the game, so there's really no reason they shouldn't be main categories. Hopefully people take some interest in these great SMB2-J categories (I'm guilty too) and have some fun playing them!
That's it everybody! Let us know your thoughts, say thank you to Threecreepio, and have a good day!
- SMB1+2J Mod Team
I strongly disagree with what iBall said haha, the difference on CRT is huge. At different times I've used composite, s-video, component, and a PVM and seen a significant difference each time. Each step does have diminishing returns vs. the previous one, but the jump from RF/composite to s-video/component is huge.
I just spent hours trying to figure out how Lekukie saved the mid 366 framerule in 5-2, and finally found out that he actually didn't.
When playing through the level normally, and doing the typical slowdown for devils spell (nothing fancy, just holding left), the first frame you can jump on for the clip is Frame 068. Jumping on this frame, and then doing a perfect devils spell with 3 frame perfect jumps will get you going down the pipe with Frame = 109 and R = 06 at the top of the Pellsson rom.
After entering the warp zone, the X sockfolder value in the HUD will be E. Here is a video with the typical HUD values (note that this devils spell is 2 frames slower than perfect, so all of the values will reflect that):
This is what you get when you start the level normally. Starting the level normally has the frame counter = 024. This holds true even if you restart the level with up+select. BUT, if you load a savestate (using left+select) after doing up+select, the HUD values will all change depending on what frame you did up+select.
In Lekukie's Twitch broadcast, he did just that. Here you can see him up+select to return to the beginning of the level, and it gives him the regular 024 frame number. But after running through it once, he loads back to a savestate he made at the beginning, and now the frame number is 152:
This actually messes up all of the frame counting HUD values, including the X sockfolder value and the R value. I tested this and everything lines up perfectly for it to be true. I got the frame count to be 152 myself at the beginning of the level, and here's a devils spell I did from there:
If you compare this devils spell to the first one of mine I linked above, you'll see they're the exact same speed. And yet, this one gets G into the warp zone instead of C. At this point, everything finally made sense to me. Looking at this, I could see 2 frames I could possibly save. I could jump 1 frame earlier after Mario comes to a stop, and I lost 1 frame on one of the jumps inside the pipe (the one where Mario turns around). So overall this devils spell is 2 frames slow.
Now compare this to Lekukie's: https://www.twitch.tv/lekukie/clip/BlindingCarelessChoughYee
You'll notice that everything is offset by exactly 2 frames! It all matches up perfectly! Lekukie jumps on frame 196 (1 frame earlier compared to the 197 in my video) and has all frame perfect jumps inside the pipe (Mario faces left for the entire clip). He gets "I" value upon entering the warp zone, which is 2 frames faster than G.
All of the HUD values are offset by 4 when comparing to regular HUD values that aren't messed up by loading a savestate. This means that Lekukie's X = I and R = 10 are actually the same speed as X = E and R = 6. When he finishes the level and gets R = 15, it's actually the same speed as R = 11, meaning it's 4 frames shy of saving the framerule. It's nothing to shake a stick at- his devils spell is the fastest you can go without doing a different slowdown method or a different clip method. But it unfortunately did not save the framerule. You can save 1 frame in the warp zone, and, according to Kriller, you can save 2 frames by doing a lower initial jump into the devils spell pipe and doing 4 frame perfect jumps inside the pipe instead of 3. All of that together would still come up 1 frame shy of saving the framerule. Drat! Not that it matters too much, since at that point it would be easier to just do the left side clip and save more time with it anyway.
Case closed! Be careful with your HUD values!
Fireball hit piranha plant on the same frame it despawned. That means it despawned and didn't die. If the piranha plant death routine executed you would be rewarded 200 points.
human sum of best was like 4:56.6 or .5 at the time and it wasn't thought to be humanly impossible. Also that's not a great metric. Let's say somehow there's a new trick that saves 4 seconds and someone gets a 4:53 with it. It would be a time that was previously thought to be literally impossible, but not speedrun of the decade.
@Lul_ecks_dee I mean that in a TAS of all coins you would take the pipe and save probably 3 framerules or more.
Taking the pipe is multiple framerules faster in a TAS.
I finally got around to messing with this and quickly found myself in this situation, lol https://imgur.com/J3cB5Sc
it seems using the built in savestates causes a lot of palette glitches lol
That discord is not ran by SMB1 moderators and is completely disconnected from SRC. Posting on this forum won't help.
Sub 5 was proven possible about 7 years before Andrewg got it. He didn't find any massive timesaving glitches, just ways that he could implement already known glitches. Just like xx_420_blazit_xx did not find wall clips, just an RTA viable way of doing them. Also, sub 5 probably would've happened sooner if TG didn't hold Andrew back from doing glitches for a few years.
Good job and congrats to everybody who has achieved things in SMB1 :)
As Roopert stated, snes classic is an approved platform for the All Stars version, not the NES version.
Distributing roms online is illegal. Do not ask about this on the forums.
