So, it has been a while since we did one of those. I know Adam usually takes charge on them, but we felt that I would do this topic more justice, so here we go. The rules for the PAL categories right now are, as many of you probably know, very washy.

For anyone who doesn't know what I mean, allow me to explain. PAL runs with a signal called PAL50, and that 50 is an important number. It signifies that LM runs at 25fps. Now, this becomes an issue when people who are not from Europe try to run the version. In order to run the game, many people convert the signal to NTSC, which often means loading the game at 30fps. That's not just a visual change, however; the game actually will often run at 30fps. If you don't know what that means, very simply, every 6 seconds in PAL is 5 seconds in NTSC. That's a lot of time in a speedrun. This isn't the only issue with loading PAL, however. Some runners even load the game at 25fps, but it's still not fair to the European runners. Loading the game from an app instead of the disc channel will often reduce lag/load times.

There are several ways to be able to see the game without loading it in an NTSC signal. The obvious one is to buy a PAL tv, but that's expensive and unrealistic. For most runners, the easiest way to do this is probably to buy a cheap standard definition capture card that can convert the signal. An example is my ion video 2 pc, which converts the signal with no delay. You can also buy a signal converter, however I have no experience with it and cannot confirm how much delay it would have.

Okay, I know that's a lot to understand, so let me explain what I'm trying to say. I am proposing that we ban loading PAL LM from anything other than the default disc channel, to keep loading times/framerate/lag consistent between all runners. As we have little to no way to know what version people already on the leaderboards have run on, I propose leaving all times up. None of the times on the leaderboards are very optimal, and the 100% world record is on disc channel anyway. The downside to this is that runners will need to both buy a disc, and find a way to convert the signal so that they can run it. In my opinion, that's worth the fairness of competition. Let me know what you guys think, so that we can make the rules benefit everyone.

Also, I just want to mention briefly. I know that a lot of people don't care about PAL. That doesn't mean we should just brush it under the rug. If you can't look at it as a legitimate category, then please don't bother commenting.

Wow, that's literally minutes of time difference. I'll be honest, I didn't open up this thread because I didn't fully understand the difference. Seeing Skozzy explain it though, it shows how clear a difference this is. Although it may be an inconvenience to any PAL runners, I agree that PAL runners must use the disc channel to load the game to keep things consistent and fair between runners.

EDIT: I would still like to see DeathJohnson's opinion on the matter before making my opinion final =]

I'm extremely biased of course, being pretty much the only person to run PAL (and get times that are even within a few minutes of decent), but my opinion on what should be allowed is basically the opposite, as admitted little sense as it would make to be on the same leaderboards as the other categories and their strict rules. If it was up to me on PAL rules, I would just basically let it be anything goes, emulators, USB loaders, disc loaders that eliminate lag, just anything. Allowing everything makes as fair of a playing ground as banning almost everything, the big issue is just that it completely clashes completely with the rules already set for the NTSC runs (which is really the only reason I could understand the argument for PAL being its own leaderboard on the site, I would accept that happening, if it came to it at this point). It would welcome anyone that wanted to run it though, at no additional cost to them.

When it comes to using a signal converter, I actually have one, and it doesn't really work the way it should, in that the best it can possibly do is allow the audio to function properly, with no video at all. So when it comes to picking a signal converter for anyone who would want to in the future, it's basically a guessing game to try to find one that would work for this purpose, since the information available on them is really scarce. Anyone wanting to use a signal converter to run PAL would have to just order one and hope for the best, and they're really not cheap to be gambling money on.

Buying an extra capture card for the sole purpose of running a specific category of one game seems like a bit of an unreasonable added expense as well, considering you would already need to buy the PAL version of the game, you're looking at probably over $100 for someone who runs Luigi's Mansion that wants to make the jump to PAL, and most people that are interested in PAL just seem to have interest in trying it, not really running it long term, so such an investment is out of the question for them.

I'd like to see a run that has the timesave from the difference in FPS that's so significant, my PBs are on a loader that converts the signal to NTSC so I would think it should be faster like mentioned, but the game definitely never felt faster because of it, and I compared my PB videos to those of two European runners, and just compared cutscenes since if it time that quickly, it should be noticeable easily (since the cutscenes I've been comparing are over 12 seconds at least, it should save 2+ seconds if that's the case), but my runs don't save any time in the cutscenes. So I'm kind of wondering if that's actually a thing that happens. I can see why it makes sense in theory, but I'd really want to see an example of it happening, because I simply cannot find one.

I disagree strongly that allowing any platform, including emulators, is an even playing field. I have an SSD drive, I would save a lot of loading time over a runner who had a worse pc. I also disagree that it would be more accessible to everyone. While more people would be able to run, for sure, I doubt that most people have computers that are capable for streaming and running dolphin emulator at full FPS. When you really get down to it, there is no "free" alternative, or even a cheap one. Speedrunning costs money, whether it's in discs or cables or fast computers or spare controllers for when you smash them in rage.

I guess when you get right down to it though, for the easiest playing experience, emulator/usb loader would probably be the answer. I still don't think it's a particularly good answer, which is why this is such a hard topic to handle. Nobody is right.

Ok, I think (key word: think) I got a good understanding of this situation now after re-reading the posts a few times. Like Skozzy said there really is no right answer here, both paths are pretty difficult and will cause problems and from the looks of it the most likely choice will be having to choose the lesser of the evil and now let's see what that lesser evil is.

So first of all here, we have the option to allow USB loading/emulator/etc, which is good because that won't force people to spend a large amount of money and that will bring more attention and life to the PAL categories, but like Death said that clashes against the rest of the leader board, and will make the community look very, very bad. "Hey, LM community what's up? You banned all this stuff for literally half the leader boards but allow it for the other half?? You might as well allow all this stuff throughout the entire leader board!" and I can guarantee you someone will say that or something similar if this path is picked, which could very well cause some problems and drama in and around the community (and no one wants to deal with that mess again). It will also be a sketchy scenario because of lag and loading time reduction, so the playing field will be all over place unless testing (which I see would definitely be a lot of) states otherwise.

Now let's look to the other side and say we ban all those things for PAL. That will cause a bit of difficulty because runners will have to spend quite a large sum of money to be able to run PAL categories and Death made a strong point in saying a lot of runners (myself included) are only interested in trying it out, which is understandable because you never really know if you'll be committed to running something right off the bat. So in this path the PAL categories will likely remain quite dead and inactive, but there will be a definite fair ground for the categories and will eliminate any USB loading/emulator drama that the other path will more than likely create. And going off Death's point again, I have observed that most runners who are only interested in PAL seem very passive about it. Most of them don't seem to have much of an issue not being able to easily run PAL, it seems to be at the furthest point in the back of their minds. So the large costs would definitely intimidate and keep most people from running PAL, that still stands, but by the looks of it this will create very little to possibly no drama or complaints from the people who have expressed interest. Again this is going off the observation that these runners (myself included) are very passive with the idea of running PAL.

With all that in mind it would seem the second choice would be the better alternative. Is it a good one? Of course not, but the chances of any huge headaches coming out of it are less than the first choice and that makes it the better choice I feel.

With the idea being to avoid any drama or anything in the future, we would have to remove all of the non-European times on the leaderboards unless the runners can prove use of disc channel, which I really doubt. Since removing the times would be the only fair thing, leaving times up just because they're bad even though they're against the current rules doesn't work unless we want to get some SMS style rules of "you're allowed to load through X if your time is worse than Y", which makes no sense.

So that would leave 2 times up for Any% and 3 for 100%, as main categories... At least one of the PAL categories was already on its way to being demoted to a Misc category before I started running them, me taking the categories seriously enough to get decent times in them was the main thing that saved them from that fate, but with those amounts of runners, there would be absolutely no argument for leaving them as main categories, both of them combined would have less runners than memes like low%.

Of course, demoting them to Misc categories, well, that would give the categories even less of a chance to survive in any form, since the leaderboard rules obviously still apply to Misc categories, but even less people would care about them. At that point, it feels like having them on these leaderboards wouldn't even be worth it. They would just be there as a sort of reminder that PAL categories used to be a thing, while they would remain there, completely and utterly dead.

I was initially opposed to the idea of PAL being its own leaderboards, since, you know, it's still Luigi's Mansion, it didn't seem to make much sense. Really though, that's probably the best option of all of them. Having PAL in its own place so it can have its own rules and allow whoever wants to to run it however they so choose, this would also allow there to be a greater variety of PAL categories since that wouldn't really fit on the main leaderboards either. Sure, PAL being on a separate leaderboard would make it a lot less likely that people unaware of what PAL is would ever discover it, but it would greatly increase the odds of people that have an interest in running it actually being able to, so PAL would actually have a chance to survive in some form, unlike just sweeping it off to the Misc categories to rot, which is the only place it would fit on these leaderboards.

I know this is a little delayed, but i think a work around (if people are willnig to take the risk) Is to use ARC (AnyRegion Changer) via Homebrew channel.

Cause i've personally tested PAL Firmware on my US-Release Wii, and it worked as if Natively European, Even Output a PAL signal (Which, didn't seem to agree with my Capture Software, that REFUSED to change to PAL input mode, despite having it as an option </Salt>)

The only drawback of this is, that a Mis-match of firmware choices (For example, NTSC-J Disc channel, but NTSC-U menu, etc.) Can brick the wii, Especially Korean Firmware, Which, in some cases, can be restored via a NAND backup via BootMii, But not in servere cases (which, Korean Firmware causes, unfortunately)

tl;dr, We can change our Wii's region with ARC, but with some risk, if not careful, if that's something to suggest

Region unlocking isn't an issue, that's very easy to do (and might I add, with Priiloader, which will not brick your Wii). The issue is finding a way to load the game so that it can be seen on NTSC TVs without reducing lag or increasing the framerate of the game

In terms of accepting signals natively, there do exist some software and capture cards that have it in their drivers, for example, my $5 Easier Cap video, has in its driver to change its frequency between NTSC, NTSCM, and PAL. As well as my capture software, AmaRecTV.

AmaRec is completely free, but a little complicated to set up. But I can post a tutorial, if needed, and as far as the Easier Cap/, it's a whole $5 for it, driver CD included.

The PAL category intrigues me in that it looks difficult compared to NTSC, which I think I would enjoy. I believe my Avermedia can convert to PAL (I did see a PAL options under video) but I'll actually have to play around with it once my disc arrives in the mail in like a month.

The rules for PAL will be as follows:

-You may run using any app loaders you wish, so long as you are loading from a disc. -My recommendation is to run with Nintendont if you have NTSC equipment.

-You may run it at any fps, so long as the game's time does not speed up. -The best way to check this is to time how long it takes you to walk across an open area and compare it to loading through the disc channel.

-You may not use any emulators or loaders other than those for an official PAL disc

I'm also going to add to the rules that Out of Bounds is banned, because I have confirmed it is possible. If anyone has any questions, complaints, or anything of the sort, please do speak up. It's worth noting that the reason this was decided was not to allow for some loading advantage, it was to make it fair for everyone. We want as many people as possible to be able to run PAL, while still leaving the competition as equal as possible.

Does anyone run PAL OOB? Everyone on YouTube seems to say it's not possible, which is clearly untrue (as long as you run Normal Mansion instead of Hidden Mansion), and I am unable to find any [evidence of] PAL Any% runs. As someone who lives in the UK, I would be interested in getting in to running Any% PAL, but I can't find any leaderboards or even any other runs.

PAL Normal Mansion is the same as NTSC, so that would more than likely fall into the NTSC category. As of now, no one runs PAL OOB.