First things first shouldn't "Any% With Glitches" just be "Any%"?
Next with "Any% Glitchless" at what point is a mechanic a glitch? My main question is related to cutscenes. When in a cutscene only nearby objects are loaded. meaning you can walk through doors, enemies, ect. This can be seen here where both an unloaded door and Nightgaunt are clipped through
Don't get me wrong, I think abusing unloaded objects in cutscenes shouldn't be allowed in "Any% Glitchless". I just feel this should be clarified.
I'd also like to see an "Any% No OOB" category, because there are cool clips that don't utterly break the game. A list of OOB and Non OOB clips can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12MwUXost9th_LLvmsZ-Ad7WrK1-n55B3pN2eUgrEXZQ/edit#gid=2131349333
I know it's a bit dumb to ask for new categories when no one runs the current ones, but I hope to start running all three soon, once I've finished learning them ("Any%" route is hell lol).
Finally could an admin add NintendoHardGamer's "Any%" and "Any% Glitchless" runs to the board manually? he's made it very clear he's not going to post any of his times here (read the comments of his 6:21 run if you wanna see his reasoning).
I even made the effort to retime his 2 PBs for ya : ^)
NintendoHardGamer's "Any% Glitchless" in 10:55.88
NintendoHardGamer's "Any%" in 6:21.34
I'm writing this hoping to some points brought by @turnipp to be implemented.
- Changing the category name "Any% w/ Glitches" to be just "Any%" because that's what "Any%" means.
- Adding the NintendoHardGamer's Any% and Glitchless WR run to the leaderboard to track the record time more accurately. I submitted the Any% run but don't want my bad run to be displayed as "1st" in a leaderboard.
Submitting someone's run without his consent is a big no-no. Everyone (all 3 people) that plays AITD knows about NHG and his threads on SDA as far as I know anyway. Contact him first or let him do it himself. I think having them in the forums right here is a pretty good placeholder (anyone interested in the game is likely to come check here).
But yes, ''Any% With Glitches'' is silly as all hell, and the rules for Glitchless would need to be defined properly. Though in my opinion, NHG already defined the rules for Glitchless by running and posting his 10:56. I think going by his definition makes the most sense, considering he IS the AITD speedrunning community.
EDIT: seems like he does not want his runs posted here, judging from his comments. I myself have plenty of runs that I don't have on this website. I've only recently started posting the more obscure ones because it helps infuse some life into inactive games.
I could also name a bunch of high-profile runs/WRs that are not posted on this website out of principle, and when external people try to submit them it does not end well. So please respect his choice. Not everyone supports how sr.com operates and/or the centralization of leaderboards.
I can understand where you're coming from, but speedrun.com has a feature that lets mods add times to the board without the needing for the runner to own an existing account. Even if it didn't have the video link, just having "Any% 6:21.34 by NHG" is better in my mind, 'cause people do find these games through this site (at least I do). I don't really see it as any different from making my own leader board in excel or google sheets which includes his run and the ones here and sharing it online (some games do this I believe...). I just see this as an accurate record keeping issue.
Adding "by the way NHG has this record" in our runs notes seems redundant when there is a site feature which is cleaner. It's not like someone's impersonating him, we all accept he has WR in glitchless and any% currently. so why not add his time to the board to reflect his standing in this "community"?
But don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying. I guess it just boils down to a problem of respecting the runners wish to avoid this site, or having a (in my mind) more complete history of the games time progression. Again I'm not saying we should disregard NHG's wishes, I just though I'd elaborate on my thinking and conclusions. At the end of the day it's not my call to make.
I hope he may post his times here himself someday (which would be the best outcome really), 'cause I honestly don't see them getting added here manually.
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On another note. While I do think NHG defined the core rules for Glitchless, I have some questions about if certain parts should be considered Glitchless. To the best of my knowledge his 10:56 Glitchless run was an Any% run initially, until the discovery for OOB and a few other glitches. He then reclassified the video as Glitchless after-the-fact.
Some Glitchless categories also like to ensure that things that things that look glitchy should be banned. So I think we should decide going forward if manipulating/dodging the arrow is a glitch (2:57 in NHG's 10:56 video). I personally don't, but I'd hate to learn the trick and have a run invalided by the mods. (not to mention the animation cancels at 3:07 and 6:01)
Also one question not answered in NHG's run are tricks discovered after the run. For example in his 9:27 Any% run, he uses a trick to stop the Cthonian from killing him in the tunnels (at 4:28 in the video). I don't believe this is a glitch as all you are doing is standing in a certain spot where you can't be killed. I think this glitch could maybe lead to an improved route for Glitchless, but I haven't timed it so who knows ¯_(ツ)_/¯
But anyway, that's kinda why I wanna see more defined rules for glitchless. I'd settle for a slight discussion though, as I kinda already can guess other runner's stance on glitchless (NHG's definition all the way kek). But I'd really like to see a mods thoughts, if they'd respond to this thread.
Correct. It's no one else's but NHG's call to make. As I said, there are plenty high profile world records not on this site. AITD1 is small potatoes.
And yeah I agree about mostly everything you're saying about what needs to be done for Glitchless rulings. It's just logistically difficult to do anything when no one really runs the game. I barely remember any of the specifics myself because I played for like 2 days.
Well I submitted a Glitchless run that does all of NHG's tricks (albeit poorly kek). So hopefully some light can be shed on the glitchless rules here.
side-note: For anyone reading this, who is interested, I tested using NHG's Cthonian skip to enter the caves from the cellar in a glitchless run. which allowed me to skip picking up the Old Cavalry Saber on floor 3 and also skip picking up the key to Jeremy's study on floor 2. However I forgot you need the lighter to relight the lantern in the caves. Even if the lantern didn't need to be lit to finish the game, doing the maze blind would suck X). So a bit of a bummer, but I thought I'd share to cap off some of the stuff I said above.
Hello there, hope I don't bother !
I just passed here in pure curiosity and saw this whole discussion. I just want to say you can do absolutly what you want with my runs. I know I was kinda... Well I was very judgy and mean with this whole website and how it worked. I had the idea that it was a mistake to accept all speedruns with no strict rule or severity, it'll cause everyone to do bad PBs just to have their name on a ranking list no matter how serious the speedrun was, especially "unpopular games" because the moderation would be between the hands of the same guys speedrunning the game (and of course they'll accept they own speedrun).
Some years ago I had a discussion with an "Another World" speedrunner and I realised how elitist and arrogant my vision was. Of course I'll never be a fan of "lazy speedruns" but I'm nobody to declare that someone didn't do his best to do his own just because the run doesn't seem good enough. The important thing is to try our best and be proud of our result, and most of all enjoying doing it, expressing our passion for our favorite games and being part of a community who share this love.
Anyway, all I want to say is: if you have any question I'll be my best to help (but I have to say it's becoming old for me too x)). And about my speedruns, use them as you please ^^ Don't feel any obligation though ! I'm very proud of what I was able to do at this time but I don't mind if my run and name don't appear here.
See you soon guys !
P.S: Oh, and as alyways I'm sorry for my poor english ><
About NHG: I asked with him in the comments under the video. He allowed it to be published. I posted only noclip video because I was running through it myself. Mainly so that there would be more runs in the statistics.
Regarding categories: glitchless category should clearly be without clips. In the end, the Indian skip can be considered a glitch. But it is used in the first places. Including me.
Hi there ! Nickanvar, didn't you see my last comment just above yours ? Ahah nice of you to ask me before posting my run anyway !
I don't know if it's still a thing but I can help if someone wants to discuss and clarify what could/should be a glitchless speedrun of this game. it's actually a very complicated question. You gave a good exemple with the indian skip. The trick simply consists to take a potion during damage, cancelling the animation in the process. Is it a glitch or a "normal reaction" from the game ? As I told once in a comment, it's kinda the same debate with how I jump-pass the Zombi-chicken. You could consider that not being stopped by damage animation when you jump is a glitch too.
Also someone told me once, not so politely to be honest, that to him the jump at 6:52 was a glitch. After all you do make Carnby/Emily jump through a platform, you may consider he had a point.
In each case only the devs could define an absolute truth about that. If not them, who can say if being able to jump/heal during damage is intentional or not ? So the only way is to establish those rules by ourself. Djeez said 4 years ago that I defined the rules because I was the AITD speedrunning community at the time but I'm not sure to be comfortable with this idea. It should be more of a debate between involved people x)
Good to see you around NHG. And cool to see a new mod and recent discussions about the rules!
While we're at it, how do we feel about DosBOX cycles? Obviously the majority of people would run this game on DosBOX. I believe the only time this has been brought up, Turnipp said to do whatever feels right. Obviously maxing out is faster. I think NHG was running on a set speed? Maybe around 25000? EDIT: he was running on GoG-standards aka 11000.
Most recent game I've ran in the series was Alone3. It was only a few days, so I didn't really think about the cycles. But I'm starting to dive back into Alone2, and realizing how big of a difference it can make.
I guess the options would be :
A) Set a specific speed that everyone must run at.
B) At runner's discretion (current situation). Max = Fast, but does not really feel bad at all IMO. It's not obscenely fast like a Dune 2000, where it looks like a different game almost. It's just very smooth transitions mostly.
C) Different categories. Basically a ''set speed'' category, and a ''free for all'' category. Obviously this option muddies up the leaderboards, but hey, it'll never look as bloated as a Resident Evil leaderboards I'm sure!
For Time Gate knight chase, which is "alone in the dark 4", we set the cycle to 80000. https://www.speedrun.com/time_gate_knights_chase?h=Any_-_Medium&rules=game&x=jdzw9n6d
We had a discussion in SpeedDemoArchive here: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/time_gate_knights_chase_26.html
Wow I had never heard of this game, but it indeed looks like it plays just like a classic AITD game! 80000 is definitely very fast, about as fast as my CPU running on max speed. But it seems like it makes the gameplay very fluid and interesting for a speedrun (at least for Time Gate). A higher speed for Alone in the Dark would make getting extra camera changes less of a punishment (since the amount of frames switching to a different camera are lessened). But general movement and menuing is harder to execute. Curious what others have to say.
I had read that SDA thread in the past as well (found it from googling random queries about DOSBox speedruns) but I didn't know about the game so I wasn't that invested.
It's exactly the same game engine and same developers ahah You should give a try, it's fun to speedrun
since AITD1 is older it makes sense to be lower than 80k yes
Quick thoughts after (finally) learning the optimal glitchless route:
I think the current rules are fine, but open to change. Yes, arrow skip is questionable-looking, but nothing really crazy is going on. The camera is following the arrow, and makes things look crazier than they really are. All you are doing is walking down the hallway, dodging the arrow at first, then tanking the arrow with available health/potion. Aggressive play for sure, but nothing out of the ordinary IMO. Just have to be careful to not have the ARROW pickup the BOOK for you. That is definitely a glitch, and should void the run.
Skipping damage-stuns by jumping and/or drinking a potion also is contentious, but IMO, abusing invulnerability frames is pretty standard gaming stuff and should be allowed.
About "Glitchless" category:
Glitchless categories always have to draw the line somewhere, and your average youtube comment will always find something to complain about. That's why "No Major Glitches" categories have gotten so popular, because there's less room for semantics. Hell, I wouldn't mind seeing the category renamed to No Major Glitches personally. This would leave the door open for a more pure "Glitchless" category, if the demand was ever there. To me, major Glitches are: Any type of clip, out of bounds, hovering/flying (dropping an item in the middle of a jump). Phasing through an unloaded door/enemy (aka Mirror/Nightgaunt skip), I think should count as a clip/major glitch.
It is possible to trigger a "hover" at the beginning of the Cave Tunnels, and prevent the bridge from collapsing. This would allow the player, after defeating Pregzt, to exit from this path instead of the wine cellar, saving almost 20s. Even though it doesn't appear like you are flying, you are still in a hover state to prevent the bridge from collapsing. Basically, the act of dropping an item during a jump should be considered a major glitch, and ruled out.
TL:DR would be nice to have clearer rules
Thank you nick! By the way I liked some of the stuff you did in your run and have been using them: the vortice skip from the double door, backing into the caves stairs and using the Sword to smack the chicken (slower than slap of course, but the slap is too inconsistent for me). Good stuff!
Maybe one last thing, "Any% with Glitches" should just be "Any%" (as mentioned by Turnipp and PlasticRainbow at the start of the thread). Also I'm still unsure when the run starts and ends? I've been using first visible frame as the game fades into the Attic, and first visible frame outside the mansion (so I lose all the loading time as you walk out the door, meaning my PB would be a 10:22 if I stopped as soon as touch the exit, but 10:23 if I stop when I'm outside). I'm not sure how the other runs were timed.
About a potential "No OoB" category, since Turnipp was talking about that in the first post. No reason to create that category yet, but in case someone wanted to do runs of that, I think there's a few questions to be asked first:
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Is Hover/Flying allowed? Probably allowed, since you're still in-bound.
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Are you allowed to clip through walls that don't cause an OoB? There's plenty of times when clipping through a wall instantly puts you into the next room, without having to go through the "OoB Shadow Realm". Should that be allowed, or is all clipping banned? I'm honestly not sure how to answer that. I'd have to see a route first to form an opinion I think. I guess jumping over the cellar crawlspace would fall into this "clip but not OoB" definition.
Regarding the chicken: in this scene I couldn't escape from it and gave up. I came up with this simple strat :)
Yes, yesterday I thought about renaming Any% with glitches to Any%. I'm glad you agree with me. About Start and Finish: when the player takes control of a character and loses it respectively.
About Start and Finish: when the player takes control of a character (fade in) and loses it respectively (first frame of cutscene outside the mansion). I wish the game had an autosplitter, but unfortunately it doesnt :( I rewatched your run: the ending cutscene screen appears at exactly 10:23.5. I think this is a small error: if there is ever a daredevil who will bit you, then we will calculate the milliseconds.
