The co-op baby discussion got brought up again in a recent thread so I thought I'd make a new one to talk about it some more. I'm not sure if we ever had a dedicated discussion for it. I think we touched on it back when we talked about donation machine overflow but never had a discussion directly about the co-op baby usage.

I personally still don't agree with the 2-player mechanic being used for the single player run but I know there are those of you that think it's just another in-game mechanic and should be allowed.

Elad I think actually pointed out to me the other day that he thinks a speedrun is about using all the mechanics and exploits you can find in order to go as fast as possible, which seems like a perfectly reasonable perspective.

However, I don't run the game simple to go as fast as possible. I do it because I have fun with the challenge in a game that I enjoy playing and to me the co-op baby thing isn't really a part of the game I enjoy and instead takes away from it because it feels like I'd be exploiting the game in a way that, for lack of a better term, "feels cheaty".

This is a personal opinion though and I'd say is in direct contradiction to the speedrunner mentality of do everything possible to go as fast as you can.

I don't however, feel like there's anything wrong with wanting to speedrun a game for fun instead of needing to do absolutely everything to go as fast as possible. And it is a bit strange submitting runs to a category where I purposefully don't use a mechanic.

So I'd like to pose the question of whether or not the majority of runners think co-op babies should be allowed or not? If they do, then co-op babies for everyone. If not, then maybe we ban it? If it's split, we could create a new category perhaps?

My personal preference is that it would be best to have the rule "You can't spawn a co-op baby."

Coop baby makes speedrun faster and less rng based about heart drop. if you start on bb and don't get any hpup before deal so press reset button because bad seed?

Pls ban co op

umm, we can set such a rule to ban co op baby, but I really dont see any problems with using this as a glitch.... in fact I think it makes speedruns better since you get less "screwed" by rng a lot of the times... after all, this is a speedrun not a race when we play a mod and try to make it skill based.

I don't want it in speedruns and still don't use it for the reasons mentioned. Every speedrun is inherently single player until mentioned otherwise, games that use multiplayer functions do so in different categories (secret of mana 2 controller).

Coop baby doesn't make the game less RNG based at first, it makes it way easier. Both a Shadow and a Lazarus' Rags respawn start with an additional heart AND can use the coop baby for the first devil deal on top of this, for example. Without even picking up any health, a shadow start can now take 2 devil deals already instead of 0 if you don't use coop baby. Get hit 3 times on a blue baby run? Whatever doesn't matter, can cheat me my devil deal anyway. That's not an insurance against bad RNG anymore, that just removes any requirement for skillful play to not get hit, conserve health, bomb tinted rocks, etc. It dumbs down the speedrun experience and makes it less fun to me. And I agree with the general perspective that speedruns are not about "anything goes, as fast as possible", inherently. Every community bans exploits that greatly reduce the amount of skill and/or fun.

And as I said in the other thread, there is a general trend in running this game lately where the newest to addition to running the game aren't about making the game more fun or skill based to run, they are about trying to get away with as many loopholes as possible, with exploits that aren't about exploiting the game mechanics in a clever play that speedruns are about, but instead with exploits that try to exploit the rules of what is allowed and how things should be done (2 player mechanic, crashing the game to revert mistakes are the two most recent examples). I don't like this general trend and would like to see it gone.

I honestly don't have much experience with speedrunning since Isaac is the first game I'd ever ran. My first instinct though is that it should be a separate category. A 2-player/controller category I guess?

Just to be explicit, how does the co-op baby thing work? What is needed to preform the action?

I don't like idea of banning coop exploits considering the fact that:

1. It's not a game breaking strategy/exploit, WR can obtainable without using coop exploits, current 7char wr doesn't use coop.
2. Saying that it makes game straight up easier is not necessarily true, because you constantly push yourself to 1 heart, which makes it easier to die obviously.
3. While mostly it's about devil deals, you can make some other interesting plays like keeping scapular proc with coop baby.

Also to pibo's point "That's not an insurance against bad RNG anymore, that just removes any requirement for skillful play to not get hit, conserve health, bomb tinted rocks, etc." then if it's removing any requirement for skillful play, why we don't have WR's set by a random people?

You completely misinterpreted (on purpose?) what I said. Skillful play regarding conserving health for a devil deal is removed, nothing else. You even quoted the very second part of the sentence and then dropped it to misinterpret it. How you jump from that single point to reading it as "the whole game requires no skill at all anymore because of this so why don't random people have the WR" is absolutely beyond me. Pointless question. What's your agenda here?

I think we need to ban co-op baby. It's just unfair with keyboard runners. I don't own a controller and i can't do the coop baby thing since you can't bind co-op baby spawn to the same controller/keyboard you're using (No, you can't, i've already tried), which means i'm on a unfair disadvantage against everyone using it.

Racing bans co-op baby, i think speedruning should ban it.

Also, specially on BB, you used to play safe to ensure you had 3 hearts for DD. With Co-op it doesn't even matter, which means i'm forced to play safe and a controller player can just go yolo because deals cost him 1 heart while they cost me 3. It's just unfair with keyboard players and it should be banned.

Disclaimer: I don't speedrun more than Jud9s (which I haven't even put a PB down) so yes I'm a filthy casual voicing his opinion. I don't want it to count as an official vote but I'd like to comment.

Don't ban coop baby. Why? Making separate categories will likely put a damper on the community. It will degrade the already slim competition that exists for char runs. I think if a consensus can't be made it should be separated (instead of outright banned), but ultimately I think it's a bad idea. Here's why:

1. Coop babies, while definitely super phony, take away SOME of the RNG of early BB devil deals, but it's a risk vs. reward strategy. Since Isaac is a very risk vs reward game, I think it's an interesting way to make the game faster. If brain can put down the WR he has WITHOUT coop, imagine what he could do WITH coop.

2. It's not game-breaking. Separate categories like the one suggested are created usually to ban game-breaking glitches/work-arounds (like the Boshy WrongWarp) that make the game no longer fun/difficult. As shown by the current WR, the game is still VERY hard to beat that quickly. Why make it harder when there is an interesting (albeit phony and less skill-based) way of getting rid of some of the harshness of the game? I think that is the essence of speedrunning (as Brain quoted Elad) and it shouldn't be ruled out.

3. Keyboard vs. Controller. There are pros and cons to both. Keyboard users can more easily use mouse for Epic Fetus. Controller users must use D-Pad or sacrifice speed to the joystick. Spike corner tiptoes are (arguably) easier on controller. Controller users can more easily spawn coop baby. I'm sure there are more examples that I'm not thinking of. Most keyboard players probably own a controller, and if they don't there are cheap options to get one that will do the job for coop.

4. Coop babies are just interesting, fresh, and fun. I'm all for bringing fresh plays to the community. Coop baby sync is viable for having a double knife for the first floor, but again it's risky! This mechanic I feel could lead to other exploits that runners haven't really explored because they afraid of the backlash (i.e. run being invalidated). Speedrunning is ultimately for fun and I think if you can get past the phony-ness of coop baby you'll see it's an interesting mechanic that doesn't change TOO much that it should be outlawed or made a separate category.

Anyways, that's my two cents (take it or leave it). GL w/ the runs bois. I'll keep watching regardless.

Lobster, I'm not sure where the "risk vs. reward" of using co-op babies comes into play. Mind clarifying?

The separate categories thing is about it being a 1-player/controller vs. 2-player/controller thing. To me that seems like a clear enough and large enough difference in runs that it might warrant a second category.

I'm not sure what you were getting at with the keyboard vs. controller topic. Karol was talking about not having a controller and therefore being at the disadvantage of not even being able to use co-op babies. Which I actually hadn't even thought of admittedly.

I don't know why you think it would put a damper on the community, could you explain that? And I'm not sure what you mean by degrading the competition. As a runner you could run either category or both categories, right?

About them being "interesting" I don't see what's interesting about them other than that they're just an exploit you can use to get extra health/steal a devil deal with.

Sure thing. By risk v. reward, I mean you get the reward of a free devil deal, but you are put down to .5 heart (risking death). It's the same idea of DD's in general (paying life for a good item), but to an extreme. You rely on either finding health quickly (RNG) or perfect play (skill). By this logic, I really think it fits with the speedrunning lore/meta/what-have-you.

Regarding the keyboard vs. controller, I'm just saying that: 1) I don't think one particular runner (and I don't mean to single out karolmo, I just mean ANY single runner) not having a controller is a reason to make a rule banning it for everyone, and 2) there are advantages and disadvantages using keyboard and controller, and the runner chooses to accept those advantages/disadvantages when they "choose their weapon" (so to speak).

I will try and explain what I mean by "put a damper on the community". Realistically, there are about 10-20 runners skilled enough (IMHO, no offense meant to any runner) to compete for 7-char WR. Probably half of them use coop baby. I imagine that some runners who use coop will say "Screw 1-player, I will only run 2-player". Hence, the runners are polarized and the competition for 7-char is reduced. Obviously I don't know if this would actually happen, I could be completely wrong. It's only my prediction and opinion. /shrug It could very well happen that each category is vigorously ran. Do you plan on running 2-player if it becomes a thing?

Regarding them being interesting, I'll explain the example I was referencing above. You start a knife (which is really good, but not that powerful without damage ups). You can spawn a coop-baby, and sync it with your movement (via controller options in the menu). This essentially gives you 20/20 knife. But it's very easy to de-sync the coop baby (walking against rocks, or fighting Gurdy, for example, desync's the baby). https://gfycat.com/ForkedWeepyAidi << here's a good example. And there may be other things that simply haven't been explored for fear of the no coop baby ban-hammer. Who knows what glitches could be out there that aren't discovered?

Like I say, I'm not really a runner so it's unfair for my vote to be taken into account when deciding. But I'm glad to voice my opinion :)

There actually is a way to create a virtual joystick and bind the keys needed to a keyboard control, so not having a controller is negated by this. The utility is free and available to anyone on windows.

http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy

Hm, I don't really see how getting a devil deal you otherwise wouldn't be able to take has any risk involved. It seems exclusively a reward to me. Also if I'm not mistaken you get a full heart from the co-op baby as long as it had a full heart and not half of one, right?

Not sure if I'd run a 2-player category if it were a thing right now, however a run submitted to the category where co-op babies are banned would still be valid in the other category I would think and you could just submit it to both if you wanted to.

I feel like the having a co-op baby out all the time and syncing it with your movements supports the separation of the categories even more so because the gameplay seems vastly different at that point and it's a completely different run. It's also not really that far from just having 2 people playing at once, right?

I don't have an opinion as to whether co-op baby should be banned or not since I don't generally speedrun the game (in a non-race setting).

[quote="karolmo"]I think we need to ban co-op baby. It's just unfair with keyboard runners.[/quote]

I am also a keyboard player. However, I've been using VJoy (http://www.headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=vjoy) to emulate a controller for the past 6 months or so, and it works with The Binding of Isaac just fine. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it.

Although, while we are on the topic, I've found that the current top runners who do employ the co-op strategy aren't even using it in an optimal way, which is disappointing to me. I have the "speedrunner" mentality - I want to see the game taken to its limits and see every strategy squeezed of all its potential. If co-op babies do indeed get voted valid, keep in mind the following tips going forward:

1. For keyboard players, you should always be using VJoy, as it is straight up much faster than moving your hands to a physical controller.
2. You can spawn up to 3 co-op babies in Afterbirth. This means that, for example, you can take a devil deal for free with Blue Baby at 4 hearts or less. You should practice the inputs for this before doing it in a run, as they are complicated.
3. For controller players, "locking" the co-op baby using Joy2Key provides x1.5 DPS at the cost of taking double damage and difficulty using orbitals, which is clearly optimal for the highest level players in the world. Keyboard players can achieve the same technique using VJoy. Playing optimally like this takes some practice, as you have to constantly worry about toggling the baby on and off to avoid needless damage and/or use orbitals.

In most situations it puts you to half a heart. So the risk is dying.

The risk is dying on a run that otherwise was dead anyway because you couldn't afford a carry item from a devil deal. The comparison needs to be done no coop vs coop, not coop taking devil deal vs coop deciding not to take the devil deal. In the former, there is no risk.

Right. But my original point is that it removes being fucked by RNG early while still being a risky strategy. I didn't mean to say that it's less risky than not using coop at all (because of course your run is dead at that point). Sorry if that was not conveyed properly?