These are the general ideas that were discussed by a few runners. if you disagree, feel free to comment giving your reasoning. Potentially overlooked skips, please bring them up. In the case you are unsure of what a skip is, please ask.
Using a scramble jump to skip a climbing animation on the cliff side at the start is NOT allowed.
After the Deer Door, you can start climbing down the ladder, then hop back up and jump down to save time. This is allowed.
climbing onto the roof edge to skip up the wolf cave is allowed. Wolf Cave
Holding aim to skip an animation in the wolf cave is allowed.
jumping over the door before the AR is NOT allowed. AR Door
jumping on the rocks to skip the rope arrow use after obtaining them is allowed. Rope Arrow Skip
before the monastery, jumping on the pillar to skip rope arrow usage is allowed
after exiting the monastery, there is a chance to get a Molotov airwalk accidentally. if this happens, reload checkpoint, or just kill the Molotov guy in the first place
the wall jump to skip fire arrows is allowed, but there is no way to get through the next gate without clipping it, so at least right now, it is not usable.
skipping Grim fight #1, the method by jumping on the fence and on the wall is allowed, the other methods, which require clipping, are NOT allowed. Grim Fight 1
Grim Fight #2, Molotov Airwalks are banned. Molotov Airwalk
Friendship Skip (end of Geothermal Cavern), is allowed as long as you jump from the fence. the pickaxe attack along the wall is NOT allowed. Friendship Skip
The deer jump (before returning to shantytown) is allowed. Deer Jump
Triggering the end of the airboat fight by going underneath is NOT allowed.
cutscene skip when first getting to the beach is allowed. Beach cutscene skip
Cliffside Bunker; using the pillar to skip to the second floor is allowed.
Elevator puzzle; clipping the door (in any method) or falling through the metal grating is NOT allowed Elevator Grating clip
jump rolling during the walkie talkie scene on the way back to the boat is allowed.
"crazy legs" is allowed
final puzzle skip is NOT allowed. Final Puzzle Skip
skipping the walkie-talkie on the final climb is allowed.
final fight skip is NOT allowed. Final Fight
Yikes.
While I don't know what half of these even are, I did look up what some of these are and I believe that none of these "skips" that you say are allowed should be allowed.
When I think of "glitchless" I think of playing the game the way the devs intended when it comes to the order of progression (I.E. doing the first Grim fight into 2nd in the Shantytown or actually doing the puzzles to free your friends in the Caverns). If people want to do skips they shouldn't bother with a glitchless category. Glitchless categories exist so that you can play the game without doing any skips or OOB stuff.
How are skipping mostly scripted and intended fights not considered a glitch? Why would something like an animation cancel to climb up 1 ledge in the beginning NOT be allowed, but things like climbing the roof to wolf cave or using the pillar to skip 2nd floor in bunker allowed? When people start making lists like these deciding that some skips are allowed in a glitchless run and some are not, it really kills the barrier to entry. Potential runners now have to deal with all these rules and worry about if what they are doing is allowed or not allowed. I think that the allure of a glitchless category for most people would be the fact that they go through the game following how you would play it casually, just going as fast as possible, running past enemies that don't need to be killed, etc.
Skipping puzzles and fights altogether should absolutely have no place in a glitchless run. I want to run glitchless runs so I don't ever have to think "Am I allowed to skip this fight? Can I completely bypass this intended puzzle?" What if people (like me) want to just run the game doing everything the devs intended when it comes to fights and puzzles and not do any skips? Would there have to be another new category that would be "glitchless and skipless"?
I'm not particularly good at explaining things or debating, and I'm probably not explaining my thoughts very clearly, but this is just my opinion, and I think when you start allowing certain skips or "animation cancels" and not allowing other things that could be described as the same things you start down a very slippery slope where you end up with 100000 rules that people have to try to follow, when a glitchless run should be relatively simple to define. "Any%" was created so that people could start the game and go crazy with skips and OOB.
I'm sure I'll have a thing or two to add later on but that is all I can think of for now. Again these are just my opinions.
the problem we ran into, is what is and is not allowed? someone may come in and say, "hey, i didn't do any glitch", so eventually rules will need to be put into place. the skips listed do not use any kind of glitch. skipless and glitchless are not the same thing as well (this became a big debate on several other games and the Ocarina of Time rule set have a wonderfully worded section in their rules: "This category aims to ban things solely based on the techniques used, not the results of those techniques. To the extent that common sense allows, we may explain this as: "If the means are not a glitch, neither are the ends." So if you do not perform a glitch, you may skip any part of the game, regardless of how important"). In your run, jumping down the ladder after the deer door, which "skips" the intended climbing animation is one of the examples. Also one could argue that shooting a guy with a shield over the shield is not intended. This is a discussion that needed to happen. I dont think that we have the perfect system in place, but something needed to be there. I also welcome this discussion as I know everyone has different thoughts. There honestly isn't a way to please everyone.
Yeah I understand that something should be done to clarify, and honestly as long as there actually are clear Can do's and can't do's I personally feel like that is fine. While I would personally prefer to do no skip stuff I could get on board as long as the list is clear.
My main question now is how are you guys differentiating certain things that are allowed or not allowed.
An example would be why would something like "Using a scramble jump to skip a climbing animation on the cliff side at the start is NOT allowed." not be allowed but something like the Deer Jump or Beach Cutscene Skip be allowed?
I couldn't find a video on what that first point actually is, but is it what Jawibae does at 7 minutes and 40 seconds in his run or am I just completely misunderstanding what that first point actually is? To me these 3 things all seem like normal jumps.
We came to the conclusion that there were multiple times that scrambles jumps could be used in ways that are glitchy, such as house skip. Meanwhile there are other ways that could be done such as the animation cancel at the beginning. Instead of saying "some of these are okay and some of these are not," we just decided to make it so that all of them are banned so that the rules don't get exceedingly complicated. There may be small exceptions as time goes on, but for the moment, we created a list that we thought was going to be good enough to cover as much as possible in terms of what is and is not a glitch. If one instance of a mechanic could be used in a way that was considered a glitch, it got banned along with all other instances of such a mechanic, as was the fate of the scramble jump.
As for what does and does not go, anything that required an unintended mechanic such as skywalk, iceskating, door clipping, up clipping, etc. are not to be used in gameplay for this category. These would be considered glitches because they require coding quirks that we abuse in the game rather than being something intentionally placed by game designers. Using basic jumps and/or other simple mechanics (which brought up the question of scramble jumps) IS allowed in the use of runs. Since you can use basic jumping to skip areas, you aren't using any glitches to move about the world.
By default, all skips are allowed in gameplay. If said skip involves a glitch or abuse of unintended mechanics, it and all instances of such mechanics were banned. Scramble jumps have a few scenarios that can be used in a glitchy manner, and as such, were removed from being used.
So I looked through these that I could find, tested some other. And here is a few I don't think should be allowed that you have marked as allowed. Mostly because it skips a large part of the intended way.
Grim Fight #1 I would not like to have fight skips allowed. after all there is the best chances for opimization. reducing how many enemies that spawns is another story.
Friendship Skip your skipping saving your friends. like for real
Beach cutscene skip. skipping an skippable cutscene is not really nessecary and skipping cutscenes overall is not fitting for a glitchless run
Other notes:
Deer jump feels a little cheap but can't really say why it shouldn't be allowed
rope bridge skip it's a harder skip and definetly not worth it if you fail even once I feel the same about this as the deer jump
Cliffside Bunker skipping to the second floor I can allow even though it doesn't really help since you still need to kill everyone to proceed Shooting the lift and skipping the entire fight I would say is not allowed.
Using a scramble jump to skip a climbing animation on the cliff side at the start Could you specify where this skip is? Most of the time I would allow a scramble jump skip since they might happen by accident. but if it's obviuosly avoidable I can change my opinion
also is there somewhere shown the wolf cafe roof skip, crazy legs and the walkie talkie skip in last climb?
Again, one thing I want to be clear on is that this isn't a Skipless category, it's Glitchless. Even if it means skipping a large portion of the game, it is still not using glitches, therefore it is allowed. Regardless of what is skipped, because glitches are not being actively performed, the skips are okay. Also, the points you made for skips that shouldn't be skipped are strictly for how you prefer, rather than potentially being banned due to glitch/OOB use. As Brass said before, "the Ocarina of Time rule set have a wonderfully worded section in their rules: "This category aims to ban things solely based on the techniques used, not the results of those techniques. To the extent that common sense allows, we may explain this as: 'If the means are not a glitch, neither are the ends.' So if you do not perform a glitch, you may skip any part of the game, regardless of how important."
If you have a problem with specific skips, bring forward any glitch or OOB that is used rather than mixing in personal preferences, since this rule set applies to every person who will run this category, and not just yourself. If you prefer to not do skips for personal/sentimental reasons, then all the power to you. Otherwise, they will be allowed until there is some other reason to revise the list.
what you say is true. I put in only my opinions but of course I have to bow to the masses in this case.
would still want video or better explanation on wolf cafe roof skip, crazy legs and the walkie talkie skip in last climb just so I can start doing them.
Thanks for clarification though and sorry for making you repeat
Wolf Cave skip is already provided in Brass's initial list.
Crazy legs is the most advanced technique in all of TR2013's arsenal. I hope you are fully prepared for the intensity that will impact your retinas when you look upon this ancient video that is the treasure trove of information for the performance of this glitch. It will take months and months of intense repetition and training in order to be able to perform this glitch even one single time. I hope you are ready, because if not, it will destroy you. Behold CRAZY LEGS
I agree with the rules that were posted originally, as long as you don't reject my run for using the scramble jump to skip the climbing animation on the cliff side seeing as I did it before these rules came into play and also it saves about a second so didn't really affect anything anyway ;)
Genesis, do you sleep? like ever? haha
Since that is a small thing, I'm not going to change anything. and it was done before these rules were in place, so no worries there jawibae.
to clarify about doing "scramble jumps" on accident is quite simple. if you can make a jump without it, then do so and you are safe. There really isn't much in the way of accidental areas that it could happen. but if someone is looking for new skips, it's best to just look for them without it, or at least confirm you can do it without.
For the cliffside bunker, if you are against shooting the lift at the top, there is a way around it that I used in This Run (<-- that's a link) which also shows the way through here, skipping killing all enemies, and how real the struggle is.
As someone fairly new to speed running, can someone explain why a skip is not a glitch? Surely you're intentionally doing something the developers didn't want you to to do something the game wasn't really supposed to, which sounds like a glitch.
in short, you are using intended game mechanics to go a way that was not intended but is still on the map. It's more in the class of an exploit instead of a glitch.
There have been a lot of discussing about what is glitch and not and in the end a glitch it was the community defines is a glitch. that's the final say.
@Stevetvonline - I was attempting it the other day on Xbox without any success at all, so possibly so!!
Hey I'm working on learning PS4 glitchless currently and was hoping for some clarification on some things. One which skip is the "mountain temple scramble jump"? as well is the dirty tricks skate for walkie scenes allowed? I can't seem to see anything saying yes or no anywhere.
Here you go: Would recommend joinning the Tomb Raider speedrun discord for faster responses
