Hello! So I'm kind of new to speedrunning, and decided to go ahead and start with my favorite pokemon game series (mystery dungeon). I looked for information online about how to speedrun this game, but all I could find was for previous installments in the PMD series. I've beaten the game in its entirety (main story wise +epilogue), so I'm open to suggestions on how to speedrun this game.

The only real questions I would have would be:

1. At what point would we stop the timer? I've seen that in other PMD games you stop when the credits roll, and personally I dislike that. Mostly due to the way PMD stories end when the credits role. There is that feeling of not finishing since your partner leaves (spoilers). What I was thinking was continuing the game until the point at which your partner returns, so that the story ends in its entirety.
2. Would we be allowed to use the wonder mail codes that give you in-game items? From looking at the list over on gamefaqs (NA version), I'd only ever want the Orans, wands, and reviver seeds, as well as a TM or 2 depending on my playable characters.

I am just posting this here because when I mentioned in my introductory post that I wanted to speedrun a new game like PSMD, the personw who commented said that it'd be best for me to make a post here as to what I should do. Any help would be appreciated :)

I'm considering running this game, barring the whole "need to get a 3DS capture card" thing :[

I have the same questions as you, and have been thinking about them for a while. Unfortunately, I couldn't think of much either :/ IMO, if we want to keep things open, we can consider these categories:

1. Any% >> To the credits (timing up for debate), to keep with the spirit of SDA definitions
2. Epilogue% >> Finish the post-game story
3. All Connections >> I doubt people would run this but you never know
4. 100% >> All Connections + All Dungeons + All Treasures
5. Max% >> 100% + All Meowth Theatre Dungeons + All Maxed Skills

Max% is probably not needed (and skill maxing is pretty ridiculous), because of an interesting thing: A) Any dungeon that has been explored counts as being completed ("NEW" tag removed), regardless of mission completion, failure, escape, etc.

I'm personally neutral on WM codes, because removing the RNG for PSMD can be both a good or bad thing. If allowed, I'd easily take Guiding Wand x20 and the basics, plus a few TM's if needed.

Character select probably shouldn't be included in the timing, but that's just me.

EDIT: Some considerations. => At low power you may escape any dungeon and keep all items. Will this be allowed?

Yeah, I'm thinking about developing strats for this, though the 3ds capture card is gonna be a huge pain.

I feel like that, unless we get a huge community, we should focus mostly on Any% and Epilogue%.

IMO I'd say no WM codes. RNG is something you have to deal with in any game, and even in speedrunning you can't minimize its effects. IMO, with good enough sheer knowledge and strats, you can overcome item drop RNG and whatnot so WM isn't truly necessary.

I think the next time I do a playthrough (probably not too long after AGDQ ends) I'm going to start taking notes specifically on the missions, to see what each one unlocks in turn, and then plot out which combination of missions results in the least amount of average time over a run (which is mostly a lot of attention to both the number of floors in a mission and the average floor size of the dungeons).

I think I can come up with a decent route, but my two biggest challenges at this point are optimizing my inputs and coming up with the money for a 3ds capture card and various streaming supplies if I actually get serious about it.

Already started routing with a second playthrough. Expected Any% time is ~8 hours.

I can DEFINITELY say that, for starters, Charmander + Chespin is ridiculously strong, BUT the accuracy of their moves is despicable. Also, assume no RNG manipulation, because I can't find any reliable patterns >_>"

I'll post my notes up in Guides later once I get them in order. Don't expect them to be too detailed though. Also, on the topic of WM's... Not having them would be a huge pain, especially since we can make good use of the TM's and items...

[ Screw it, I made a Pastebin: http://pastebin.com/8B9cXg8g ] As for other stuff:

You best do the optional missions, because your moves miss a ton and you get wrecked at lower levels past Chapter 9. Dragon Rage range increases with Charmander's level, which makes it useless past Chapter 9 because your other moves start to deal more than 30 damage. When picking partners during Chapter 9, each classmate gives you a different reward. Still trying to figure out which one is for the best. Stayaway and Petrify Wands are godly. Save Luminous Orbs for missions. Escape Orbs unnecessary until you hit Silver Rank (which is a while off so not really that big of a deal). Blast Seeds are godly during boss fights; I don't need to say this lol Best connection mission order for lowest dungeon floor counts (will edit later): Sylveon - REQUIRED Vulpix - REQUIRED Axew - REQUIRED Raichu Pachirisu Emolga/Munchlax - You need to keep going to find Munchlax and give an Apple Cubone/Whiscash Mr. Mime Vaporeon Whimsicott (You need to have Vaporeon completed, so you can't chain this with Vaporeon's mission) Drowzee/Ralts [ Still Going - Check the Pastebin! ] Sell Shiny Apples + Perfect Apple (after Roselia gives you rewards in Chapter 5) Sheer Mountain Range - BRING POUNCE WANDS, as you can continuously warp to find the stairs

I don't have a 3DS capture device, but I'd be very interested in watching streams/collaborating on routing. This is probably my GOTY.

I think WM allowed/disallowed should be separate categories, but allowed should be the "default". This game is RNG enough.

Timing should end for Any% when the credits music starts up. For Epilogue%, timer should end when the save prompt pops after getting your partner back. If someone's insane enough to do All Connections, timer would end when the CONNECTED! message appears on the last Pokemon.

I'm replaying the game casually and I'm about to do the classmate mission so as much as I love Espurr I think I'll find out what the reward for Shelmet is (since the pastebin says you don't have it yet?).

I'll enter a few thoughts on strategy (but seriously you're awesome for already working on the routing Celestics).

1. As far as the missions go in Lively Town, even if I stick to almost exclusively the shortest missions throughout the game and don't even complete the dungeon in my casual playthroughs, I'm generally able to get the rank up before Fire Island so it shouldn't be necessary to complete any dungeons entirely. Just do the missions.

2. My strategy has included blast seeds for the following fights: Salamence, first phase Entei, second phase Dark Matter. I've never used Wondermail, but between dungeon drops and Kecleon I usually have around 3 for Salemence (which is about enough to defeat him by themselves), and then after using those 3 I'll have about 6-8 when I get to Fire Island (and I really only need 3 for Entei). If I wanted to, I could use a couple more blast seeds on Magmortar as well, but otherwise I'm saving for DM Phase 2.

(Short note on seeds: Try to find ONE ban seed during the run. You will use it on Yveltal when he uses Oblivion Wing).

3. I think there are a few Pokemon that would be good for partner (I've personally been using Totodile, and there are places where Totodile comes in handy big time). However, Charmander appears to be, by far, the best main Pokemon in general, and especially for the speed run, as its Dragon Rage is entirely boss for the first several chapters.

4. I haven't used orbs. I find that I don't really need them, and not having them in my bag gives me room for other important items (my bags are usually filled with elixirs, berries, and seeds almost exclusively).

5. I don't usually use a lot of wands, either, but I hoard Petrify, Confuse, Warp, and Stayaway (and I think one other but I forget the name off the top of my head). I find these more useful than orbs because they take up much less space in your bag. As for when I use them... you can make arguments for either the Tree of Life or Road to Primeval Forest in Any%. In Epilogue%, you have two long dungeons where you're solo, and I can't really get through those two dungeons without the aforementioned wands, so I save them all for those two dungeons.

that feeling when you forget you made this post a month ago and people are actually starting to care (yay). God I've had so much stuff happening in my life I didn't have any real time to work on my PSMD speedrun. anyway, I read everything all you said and here's what I have to say:

1. with WM I like the idea of it, but I agree that the rng in the game is enough to get you what you need.

2. when working on the early areas of the game, I split my timer when save prompts came up. what do you guys think of that?

3. for when the start/stop the run, how about starting when it fades to black as you enter the world of pokemon? and for any% stop when save prompt after defeating DM, and the save with save prompt after saving partner for epilogue%.

4.like I said originally I am new to speedrunning, so I have to ask: what is routing? I probably am dumb for saying that. though I do understand the concept of figuring out how rng works so that we can either manipulate it or work around it.

5. I need to playthrough the game a few more times (like I said life has stopped me), before I can comment about what you said about orbs and which pokemon would be a good choice. and here I thought I could just coast on by with fennekin and riolu OTP ¤sigh¤ I even memorized all the questions to get them ¤another sigh¤

So yeah, anyone have any opinions on what I said? I don't have a capture card either so I can't record my runs currently but I am trying to get one (and learn how to install it). and yet I wonder if anybody will see this since the last reply was 3 weeks ago. I blame my awful memory :P Anyway... I'm ready and willing to help work on this game. Let me know if anybody needs any help.

1. We should put it up to a vote.

2. I use subsplits for each chapter, splitting after dungeon completion or after a story fight.

3. I start the run as soon as you confirm everything at character select (the last option before you actually start playing).

4. PMD:GtI has no known RNG-manipulation, so we can probably assume that it's going to be hard to find RNG-manipulation for PSMD. This game is an RPG, so routing for this game is basically going through all possible situations and figuring out the minimal requirements to complete a run. This involves deciding what items we need, what level and stats are safe to use, and what optional missions to complete.

5. I ¤highly¤ recommend trying to route the game yourself before looking at other route considerations so we have more fresh thoughts on it. Once that's done, take a look at the Pastebin I posted up a while back. As of this post, I am finishing up C21, so I am very close to being done with a rough draft of a route.

Before I put my final opinion on any of that, I'm gonna play the game over the course of this weekend. I'll just stick to the team I used on my first playthrough and try and route the game. I like the idea of splitting after each chapter/main dungeon. Once again, I'll see what works when I grind this weekend. I'll be back in a day or 2 to say what I found. Time to go grind! (but first sleep, I'll grind in the morning)

One last thing, I played through GtI but I wasn't into speedruns so I did not know about it not having rng manipulation. Thanks for the info.

working on speedrun as I type this, but I figured I'd ask something to Celestics if he notices this. I read your pastebin and saw that you use Chespin as your partner. May I ask the reasoning for that? I looked through the list of available pokemon, but I could not find a list that shows when they learn new moves/what they can learn. If you have that it'd be helpful.

Anyway, I am splitting once the chapter screen pops on screen (2, 3, etc...) and starting at the moment I click A for the "are these the pokemon you wish to use" question. that good? I am working on the speedrun 2 chapters at a time, so I can focus on what is going on in each area/chapter btw.

Pin Missile - Multi Hit + 4 Range Vine Whip - 2 Range

Multi-hit is just plain great with the Comeback emera. Range allows your teammate to cover for you against enemies, finishing fights much faster from a safe distance.

Both attacks are physical, which means scaling off Proteins will work. However, Charmander scales off Calcium for Sp. Attack, which means I might end up trying a Water partner next run for non-physical moves...

Right now I am working on chapter 1 and 2, so I have yet to get to the point where the partner gets involved. That is the reason why I asked that. also, your last sentence makes no sense to me. I get that chespin uses physical attacks and charmander uses special, but what do you mean by scaling off? and how does that correlate to uses a water type? I feel so dumb for not knowing this already O)_(O

Decided to start on Chapter 3. I got to the Gabite fight, and tried to be defeated like it says in your pastebin. Am I reading it wrong? Cause I had no reviver seeds (regular or tiny) and had to redo the fight. I though I read somewhere here that you could lose that boss battle and continue with the story.

I'm not using your pastebin as a guide btw, I read through it and noticed that tidbit about being defeated. I figured that since I was gonna start chapter 3 anyway, I may as well give it a try.

So... I just noticed in the starter select screen that some pokemon have 130 exp to their next level, and some have 191 exp to the next level. Does this mean some level up faster than others? If so, would it be worth picking pokemon with fast level ups?

Probably not, because vitamins vastly outscale stat gains from leveling up.

Celestics, I noticed in your pastebin, many of the dungeons that are with each mission are different for my game. For example, my Raichu mission is in Uprise Range, not in Cave of Training... This means that we can't rely on the dungeon's points to rank up. So... how can we get around this?

Oh gawd this might be a problem lol

I'll have to finish up the route and replay to confirm this.

also celestics, can you help me with what you mean in your pastebin about being defeated? I don't know what you mean by that. I am trying to go chapter by chapter and noticed where it said "be defeated" in chapters 3, 4, and 5.

Oh just get the boss to force you to faint, or force faint in the dungeon (I'm not 100% sure this works for the Gabite fight)

I found a very cool trick for skipping all missions except of the first one, which already was used in my speedrun.

For doing this trick just put all your items and money in a just and give up in a dungeon, so you can skip the entire day. Also you don't need to do any missions at all since you lose time every second you are in this dungeon, and the rewards you get from missinos are definitely not worth it since you can go through this game with a very low level as well. So in the end you only do 1 mission during the entire game which is a ~ 1hour timesave

Regarding the Wondermails, I banned them for the normal any% category since you get a lot of very unfair stuff you normally would not get during the main story. Plus they are region locked and can be updated from time to time for each region. As example you can just take Chespin as starter and activate the WM code which gives you SWORDS DANCE twice, right after Chapter 2! (GG). And the combination of Swords Dance + 60 Oran Berries + 60 Reviver Seeds + 60 apples + 60 max elixiers + 4 Life Seeds and much more stuff makes it really broken as you can remove the problem of having low attack stats entirely (sword dance spam) without even caring about collecting anything in a speedrun as you have everything in your chest anyways except of emeras.

I don't know if my ideas for the route would work, but if it does the any% run with WMs would be the entire opposite of an ordinary any% run where you struggle with your low stats and items and have to rely on blast seeds. Hence it may be the best decision to seperate any% and any% with passwords.