I noticed that recently Any Hard NG+ has been added onto the leaderboards as an official category. I hadn't been involved in the discussion, so I wanted to put my 2 cents in.
I feel that adding Any Hard NG+ in alongside the main categories (being Any% Normal, Any% Easy, and NG+ Dash) isn't the best way to handle it. As someone following and being apart of speedrunning for a lengthy time now, I've always seen a speedrun to be defined as starting the game "fresh" and from the beginning with the goal of completing the game as fast as possible. NG+ as a category is not starting the game fresh and very much trivializes the challenges the game presents normally.
While some games, such as X-2, are set up in a way in which NG+ can potentially make sense as an official category, as it resets your level back to 1 and you must progress your character's power once more, LR goes in an entirely different direction by carrying over everything from your previous playthrough (stats, equipment, garbs, abilities, everything.) [Disclaimer]: I don't know much about X-2. I'm just using this as an example.
Personally while I feel that the category should exist in some form if people would like it to, I don't think alongside the main categories is where it should be. I feel that it should be added as a miscellaneous category.
Personally I don't care if its misc or not. I did it for fun. But anyway since this is a thread, might as well share my opinion here.
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There is currently no way to run the game on hard without having to spend 9 straight hours on a run (excluding this run of course). This originally started from me wanting to run the game on this difficulty. Originally an idea of a restricted save was proposed, but after being determined as arbitrary, the idea became what the run is now.
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To address the thing about NG+ in other games. I think that point actually doesn't stand (even though I am fully understanding of the concern). Take a look at games such as Xenoblade Chronicles or Hyrule Warriors. I think those are perfect examples of how NG+ runs work. People are allowed to grind up their save (in this case I even shared mine, it can be found in the notes) in hopes of running the game as fast as possible and in our case on the hardest difficulty. SO yeah, many other games use the exact same NG+ run format this was based on.
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As for starting a game "fresh" when speedrunning, that is definitely not true. There are numerous examples like Dustforce DX, Hotline Miami and even Mirror's Edge, to name some, which host similar types of NG+ runs. So to clarify, if you have never encountered such a run before I understand it looks weird, but it is definitely not exclusive to this LB.
As a closing remark, once again, I have no problem whatsoever if this becomes a misc category, I just wanted to clarify a few things.
EDIT: spelling corrections cause I can't type
In the games that I've paid attention to or involved myself with, NG+ has almost never been a thing unless the circumstances called for it. In this case I don't feel that the way that Lightning Returns handles NG+ makes it a suitable category to be officially acknowledged.
What do you define as "circumstances calling for it"? Because with that logic NG+ Dash isn't called for either, but a rescpectable runner decided he would like to run something like it and he did. Last time I checked speedrun.com was meant to be a collection and leaderboard of all runs that have been done. I am sorry because I realize how aggressive this sounds, and once again I don't mind if it ends up being a misc category as long as there is proper justification and I don't feel like saying just because you haven't seen something like it, even though I gave multiple examples, is a proper justification. Once again sorry if this sounds aggressive.
By "circumstances calling for it" I mean that the game's NG+ doesn't transfer over your character's entire arsenal of equipment and all of your stats enabling you to trivialize everything in the entire run. The challenge is still presented in a NG+ that is set up in that manner, despite not starting fresh. NG+ dash does start fresh on a normal mode game file and works it's way into NG+. I agree that speedrun.com is a collection and leaderboard of runs, but it's at the discretion of the community to decide what should and shouldn't be acknowledged as an official category. I just personally feel that NG+ hard mode is arbitrary because it doesn't start fresh and the power level gained trivializes everything in the run, and as such would like to voice my opinion on the matter as a moderator as I was not involved in the discussion leading up to the category being added.
I still can't see why NG+ is a problem simply for being an NG+. Also I think you misunderstood my point on the NG+ dash. I fully respect your opinion btw but I fail to see the problem. I understand that your speedrunning background makes this look weird but please take some time to look at what I have presented you with (I understand this may be hard to do). Either than that, all I have to say is that speedruns are meant to be fast. So yes, I will grind to the point where fights are done fast (which btw if you compare it to Easy the only fight that is truly faster and makes a difference is a hunk, but anyway). As for the discussion, I am sorry you were not involved but I brought it up and talked about it on the series discord as well as discussing it with certain individuals. For one last time I would like to make my standing clear, I do speedruns for fun, and for me this category was fun. I understand that you don't see this as significant but please understand that I do. To repeat myself, I really don't care if this is a misc category, but I had brought this up and it was decided against it. To stop beating a dead horse, that is my stand and I don't feel presenting it any further would change opinions at this point.
Gonna post my opinion here even though it doesn't really matter since I'm not a runner, even though I do watch runs. I actually watched gamebrain's run live and do think it was unique in a way but it's true that it did feel kind of unnecessary.
To gamebrain: if you don't really care why are you taking such an aggressive position?
To OOT: It's actually true that NG+ runs exist in hundreds of other games, but I feel like you aren't approaching why this is bad correctly (personally I don't think it is but I can see why you do)
Not that it matters what I think but in my opinion let the run be. More runs can only enlarge and help the community in my eyes.
Can you elaborate on how I'm not approaching this correctly and what would be "approaching it correctly"?
To respond to ExplodingOrange, I am sorry if what I am saying sounds aggressive here, as I stated above that is not my intent. Basically TheOOT wasn't around when I started the discussion on this, if he was I would have talked with him about it like I did with a few other mods. My goal was to express my opinion, and it's true that I don't care if it becomes a misc category but I want legitimate reasoning because I had brought this concern up and it had been resolved.
OOT, I don't think simply saying "I don't like your run because I havent seen anything like it before" works. The correct approach I was talking about would be expanding upon topics such as WHY it is arbitrary and if I'm not mistaken, I think that is what gamebrain is asking for.
How is what I said not legitimate reasoning? You both disregard my points without elaborating. Other games may have NG+ categories but the context isn't the same from one game to the other on how each game handles NG+. Following the logic spoken in this thread: I decided I wish to do a LR Easy DLC NG+ run tomorrow. I'll get it added up on the leaderboards because more runs only enlarge and help the community, right? I feel that big decisions like this all moderators should have a say in things, and I wasn't reached out to by anyone before this decision was made.
@ExplodingOrange If you feel that my reasoning was "I have never seen a run like this before" then you obviously did not read any of my posts.
@TheOOT the thing is what falls under the definition or arbitrary. And yes, in my opinion, if you decide to do a dlc ng+ run if it is decided and recognized as something ok, you should go ahead and do it.
About reaching out to you, there has been constant discussion about this in the series discord for the past week, and I reached out to mods that had a way for me to reach out to them. Look, the last thing I want to do is get in a argument fight with a mod, so once again please don't take this aggressively. I fully understand your concerns and if you had brought them up when I first brought this up, like others did, I would have talked with you about it.
Look, I respect you as a runner and thus fully respect your opinion, as I said multiple times. But please try to see this through my eyes for just a bit.
To also bring something up (making this a different post because it is concerned with argumentation) you are overexagurating arguments that have been brought up with the dlc example and taking the argument down a slippery slope. Which brings me back to literally the first thing I brought up on why I actually did this. Because there was no way to actually run hard mode, and I feel both you and exploding orange have ignored this reasoning.
@TheOOT, I made the category myself. There had been discussion in the Discord recently about a NG+ speedrun, and gamebrain had spent some time routing it and discussing things with me about it, so it seemed like there was community interest in it. If I am wrong and the community does not desire this category, sure we can remove it, but I would still want it to be showcased somewhere (unless that's what you mean by a "misc." category).
The title probably can and should be changed to reflect that it's not starting from a fresh file. "Any%" gives that misinterpretation. Bear in mind, however, there are more speedruns than just those that start from a fresh file. NG+ runs are not uncommon, either. Resident Evils 4-6 have New Game+ categories listed alongside New Game, and those games feature carrying over everything you had when you finished the game.
"Following the logic spoken in this thread: I decided I wish to do a LR Easy DLC NG+ run tomorrow. I'll get it added up on the leaderboards because more runs only enlarge and help the community, right?" I mean, I'm all for adding more runs to this site... how is that a negative?
I think the concern was due to how LR handles NG+ it should be placed as a "miscellaneous category", this way it is still represented on the leaderboards, but it is placed separately from other "Any%" categories due to its arbitrary nature. Also there is potential that, even when using a set save to make it less arbitrary, that new strats may be found and the save require editing to make things faster, but to edit the "one" save would be to make the previous runs invalid. As such I believe there is grounds to set this category under the miscellaneous categories feature on this website. I definitely agree with it being available on the leaderboards, as new ways to play and enjoy the game are great, but we do need to acknowledge its potentially arbitrary nature.
Fair points. I don't think NG+ runs should be forced to use a particular save, though. Making people use a fixed save is what makes the runs arbitrary. NG+ runs should allow you to use whatever finished save you have.
Edit: I also have no idea how to set up a misc. category, so if someone else wants to do that, that'd be great.
Just to say one thing midget, when new strats are found in any category all old runs can become faster.
Damidget for the most part said what my intended message was just worded differently. I felt personally that NG+ Hard mode was more on the arbitrary side of things and is better suited to be placed under miscellaneous rather than acknowledged alongside the main categories.
Edit: Also to respond to Lewddolphin. The purpose of my "LR Easy DLC NG+" example was merely to give an example of how I could produce a category that would be arbitrary, and apply the same logic to it in regards to leaderboards.
Edit 2: I think the way it is set up now with the change DaMidget made looks good.
