Hi folks, making this a separate thread. I observed that the rules ban emulators, and thats fine if this is a position that is being taken on the boards, but I cannot find a thread anywhere in any of the boards (Jak TPL, Jak 2, or here) as to why they are banned: the rules just say that they are banned, and I've only found vague comments in some threads which don't sound convincing.

Does anyone have a link to the decision making that led to emulators being banned, or is this something worth reviewing (ie its an old decision where people just banned emulators and didn't review further)? I note that the guides hint towards the PS3 HD Collection being the better version to run (faster loads, all the same glitches are present etc), but obviously the PS3 is harder to come by and buying games from the PS3's PSN Store is a bit of a pain to handle nowadays.

Emulators for the PS3 version are obviously very WIP and unstable, but PCSX2 for the PS2 copy is relatively stable and is at lesat a better proposition than using the PS4 ISO copies; however, I can't do any runs for the game (or TP + Jak 2) because of the emulator ban [I don't have the ability to bring my consoles to the computer, nor to capture them: I also only have the HD Collection, so it would be the only thing I could run in any case].

TIA for any replies on this one. :)

Emulators have been historically banned due to (previously) large inaccuracies compared to console, a few months or years ago it didn't seem logical to allow emulators. However in recent times, PCSX2 and RPCS3 has seen big improvements to the Jak games.

The reason why it is disallowed today is due to it being largely irrelevant due to the OpenGOAL project. OpenGOAL is, in short, a decompilation project for the Naughty Dog Jak games, which as a result has led to a full native PC port of Jak 1 and 2, with Jak 3 just over the horizon. It also, more relevantly, has a ton of speedrunner-based adjustments, such as Speedrunner Mode / Quick Resets, Instant Cutscene Skips (Jak 1), Fast Progress Menu (Jak 2), etc. The leaderboards can be found on https://speedrun.com/jak1og and https://speedrun.com/jak2og (Jak 3 will have a leaderboard once it is ready for public release). Generally it is considered the best way to play the Jak games nowadays. There was an argument for still allowing emulators due to the history and competition being on these console boards, the result of that was emulators being allowed (very recently) for Jak X runs.

For now though, you can either build jak-project by yourself to see how Jak 3 runs (keep in mind, it is still work in progress and this is a developer environment, bugs are to be expected), or you can do your own runs on emulator (the experience is stable enough for your own practice needs). Jak 1 and Jak 2 are readily available on the OpenGOAL Launcher, you will just need to provide your own copy of the game.

Hey @Slysonic thanks so much for the detailed reply!

So from what I'm gathering, the reason emulators were banned was just because of the inaccuracy of them at the time, and they're now only currently banned (on the main boards) because of the open-source decompilation project.

Since they have been allowed on the Jak X board, I am curious as to whether that means there's scope for emulators to be allowed on the main boards. At the moment, the open-source projects are their own separate game boards, which means currently with the emulator ban (and the guides saying PS3 is the best version to run), eventually the main game boards are liable to die off as nobody will be able to run the original game (outside of a poor emulated version on PS4 or somehow having the original CD's for hardware PS2) and eventually, the HD Collection will vanish into the ether. While that seems very unlikely to happen, it does limit the number of runs that can happen.

I have not done any runs in the game yet, mainly because I am so bad at the games that it takes me hours (and often days) just to complete one of the games lol, and thus probably my opinion is not too important in this, but if emulators are much more accurate these days, I feel there's scope to allow emulator runs so people have freedom to keep running Jak games, long after the fact (and effectively means the boards are infinitely supported if people want to). Plus, someone might not necessarily want to use the open-source projects (I don't mind using them, though I'd rather do runs in future with the original game)

I do recognise the open source projects are naturally the place for speedrunners just due to it better supporting speedrunning stuff that you mentioned, but I do think having emulators be allowed would be beneficial to the community (including other runners from other communities). Whether that happens now or in the future, thats for the community to decide, but this helps a lot with my understanding of the communities' direction.

PS2 copies of the Jak trilogy are very common to come by-- yes there is technically a limited amount of them existing but they are still absolutely plentiful, and the PS2 version is the most competitive version. In some couple dozen years when copies become actually hard to come by, there is always the option to move on to the PS3 HD Remaster, or the PS4/5 ports (both of which are distrubited digitally therefore there is substantially less likely that the game will die off any time in the forseeable future). Or, the more likely result is that runners will make the switch to OpenGOAL as it is a far better way to play the game than on an emulator.

Emulators are also quite a bit faster than console, ergo an inaccuracy that would not make sense to have alongside the main console leaderboards. As far as I'm aware there have been recent talks about emulation (which led to Jak X allowing emulators, as accessibility of that game is uncertain i.e. Jak X is unconfirmed to come to OpenGOAL), and the general argument for not allowing it is due to OpenGOAL being a much better and a more relevant alternative.

I think the scope of which we are talking about this is literal decades into the future, where a PS2 (the best-selling console) and a copy of the game (a very popular series on the best-selling console) becomes legitimately hard to obtain. I personally think that at that point, competition will jump to OpenGOAL since it is practically just "the game but on PC" (even as far as the technical scope of it all, it is a replication of the game's original source code rewritten and is compatible on PC). It is very difficult to think of the scope of time where PS2, PS3, and PS4-onwards becomes obsolete or actually limit the amount of runs that will be done, anything could happen. But for now, with the way things are, the trilogy is close to being completely accessible to anyone on PC, thus obsoleting the need for poorer emulation that especially isn't tailor-made for the Jak games (which are complex in their own nature relative to normal PS2 games which emulators are more designed for).

@Slysonic these are all fair points and makes a lot of sense. Personally, I thought the original PS2 copies were no longer easily obtainable since the PS3 HD Collection, but as you say, the popularity of the game probably means there are enough copies out there, alongside the not-so-great emulated version on PS4, where this isn't likely to be an issue.

I wonder then, if it might be a good idea for this kind of reasoning to be put on the category boards, just so newer runners can understand the logic behind why the emulators are banned on the main boards. That way, its easy for people to find without hunting through forum threads that may get deleted later, and also reduces any chance of people asking the question in future, as I've seen this being asked on the TPL/Jak 2 forum boards from time to time, so having the info in an easy to find place helps runners overall. :)

I suppose it would be a good idea to place these on the leaderboard rules, something along the lines of "Emulators are banned, if you wish to run the game on PC you may find OpenGOAL to be better suited for you, leaderboards here: "

Most of the time when a question like this is asked, it would be posted on the Discord server, where people receive an immediate response as the Discord server is far more active than these forums. Maybe also a forum on the Jak series page? Hard to tell since forums are rarely seen in general. Either way I think I will put this in the suggestion box we have on the Discord server for adding this clarification on the rules.

@Slysonic sorry for talking a while to reply to your post, that sounds ok, but maybe something more like the below quote blocks (as one section, the quote feature doesn't seem to work very well on here) would work better, as it explains why emulators were previously banned [inaccuracies in emulation], why they're still banned [due to OpenGOAL], and what the emulators can be used for (this can easily be copypasted to TPL and Jak 2 boards, with some minor corrections).

Emulators are certainly likely to be useful from a "practice" point of view, especially for any runners who either don't have the requisite console (PS3), can't acquire a copy of the game (somehow) or aren't ready to use the OpenGOAL project due to not being good enough, but I can agree its probably not a good idea to allow emulator runs yet on the main boards, and since there's OpenGOAL, it probably won't be necessary.

Emulators were banned for Jak 3, due to previous inaccuracies in the primary emulators used to run the games (PCSX2 and RPCS3). Although these emulators have become far more accurate in recent times, we've taken the decision not to allow speedrun submissions that are done on emulator software. This is not due to the previous reason, but because the main games (Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy, Jak 2: Renegade, and Jak 3) have become available on PC thanks to the dedicated work of the OpenGOAL project.

The OpenGOAL project allows players to have an identical console experience on PC, without any of the minor speedups you gain from emulation tools, but also provides additional speedrunner-friendly functionalities. These are covered in their own boards, with the Jak 3 board here: linktotheboard

Emulators can be used for new runners as a form of practice platform for all tricks (as any tricks, glitches and the like will all be possible on OpenGOAL when you decide to submit formal runs), but you cannot submit a time to this board that was based on the use of an emulator. Times on this board are for original hardware devices only, and we will continue to invalidate runs.

I don't believe anything this long is necessary to be added, if people are looking to use emulator then I'm sure they are aware of what they could use it for outside of runs (practice etc.). Noone can stop you using it for anything outside of submitted runs, so talking about what you can do outside of runs, on a rules page for submitting runs, is a little redundant.

The only thing I think could be clarified is briefly why emulators are banned, however I still don't think this is all that important, because knowing the reason doesn't change the fact that they are banned or not. All the rules are there for is to ensure runners are aware what is and isnt allowed, not why. If people want to know reasoning, they can easily ask in the Discord.

Emulators are mentioned in the FAQ as well (this is a relatively new document, and still a WIP so I concede most people won't know about it). I could maybe add additional information there about why they are banned. https://docs.google.com/document/d/15hxUSAtIpapCUDjlf0CVoIvbBLiuC5ejkQSZ80gIaVo/edit#heading=h.mrag0e5wriuj

@The_Stellar As long as its somewhere that people can access via the boards here on SRDC, and they don't have to join the Discord to find out that kind of info, thats more important imo. I joined the discord recently, but because the server uses a bot that is asking me to verify on a website, and considering the issues with impersonation bots doing this to get peoples' accounts or other details, I left without verifying myself, meaning this information might not be accessible to all runners who don't want to verify with bots of this nature, if indeed that information is posted on Discord.

I guess I am just of the opinion that the category/game rules are the best place to put as much information about what is and isn't allowed for a run to be valid, because its likely the first place people are going to check before guides, resources, or discord servers. At least, this is something I do before deciding to get involved with a speedrun community, but I suppose not everyone does that :D

I don't disagree with your point about information regarding valid runs, I'm just saying that I don't think the extra information about what you can do with emulator, that isn't a run, is relevant.

The FAQ is not currently directly linked here, but it probably will be in the near future.

I'm also gunna pass on what you said about the verification bot, thanks for letting us know about that.