Crap load of runners (including myself) have videos of Glitchless runs.. can we stop dragging our feet on opening a Glitchless category and just do it already.. if not.. I would gladly accept being Mod in here and doing the work for ya guys.. hit me up if needed... Oreo
Nobody even came to a consensus on a set of rules. Maybe do that before demanding a board. Skunky's list made the most sense to me, but still didn't cover everything. However, other people clearly disagreed with him. I have zero desire to run the category, so I am certainly not going to force my opinion on others about it.
Gotcha.. and my apologies for demanding... lets all come up with a set of rules then.. (cheers!) spicy could be of great assistance as well as me and some others.. just let me know if ya need me.. again.. cheers!
Hi:
As Whitman said there is a lot of stuff going in this game.
So this is my final opinion for what is not allowed in this supposed category:
1.- No exact start button when you begin the game, it should be at any time random. 2.- No jump clip ledges trick (like in area 2, there are 3 of them) 3.- No kill the cars with select 4.- No kill Slash in that corner upside where it can't make you damage 5.- No ceiling glitches (the top players in this game make at least 4 of them) 6.- No Donatello special with the Bo-Scrolls technique (even this is hard to master) 7.- No start button to the Giant Mousser 8.- In Technodrome boss, if you are in the top, the foot soldiers that are down can't hurt you, so you have to kill that foot soldier. (similar to Slash thing) 9.- No killing the last Bobba Fett (jetpack) in the left corner with Donatello where it can't hurt you. 10.- Don't kill Shredder in the exact spot, where it can't hit you and even if you don't attack he won't walk or anything.
Well it would be hard if somebody want to speedrun this game without all of this. The most difficult will be the Technodrome boss, and they will take more damage because they can't do the third ceiling glitch that is a mega shortcut inside the Technodrome.
But his is my opinion, as Whitman said, I think we are ok with the only category we have. We don't need other category, We are fine in my opinion.
Maybe an all pizzas run will be interesting if somebody dares to do it. I have done it once, and is so crazy and more hard to go to the TMNT Lost Levels (all the buildings, and places that are in the game).
Nobody directly said Skunky's list was wrong, but there are posts in that thread that have conflicting opinions versus his. thenesmaster says right before Skunky that he thinks Technodrome spawn manipulation is a glitch and Skunky says it isn't. They also conflict on the Shredder fight and weapon swap trick. spicybackpain is against "hiding on the ledge during the city boss fight" which seems to refer to the Mechaturtle fight. Skunky disagrees about it being a glitch in another post.
Beyond that, things missing/unclear from Skunky's list:
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Damage boosting for the sake of enemy set manipulation and/or to get past enemies. While I don't think any sort of damage boost would be a glitch, "Rope-skip and other similar damage boosting" are specifically referred to, so I would think you also consider other types, especially when manipulation of other game variables were discussed as well.
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Enemy vehicle despawning by getting out of the Party Wagon. Addressed by others in the thread, but not in his list.
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Post Technodrome fight death. Making the Technodrome fight longer creates a real possibility of dying during the post fight forced movement. This shortens/alters the post fight transition.
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Weapon damage swap trick (Scroll damage trick). This is my biggest concern here, and people don't seem to fully understand the mechanics. All player attacks do the damage of the currently active weapon. This is not limited to scrolls and it certainly isn't limited to Donatello. If you throw a shuriken and switch back to your normal weapon before it hits, that shuriken does the damage of the normal weapon. Furthermore, if you throw your last scroll and the game sets you back to normal weapon automatically (as it always does) your scroll will do the damage of your normal weapon.
The "glitchless" run that spicybackpain posted in that thread literally has this trick/glitch/whatever in it. He turns off his scrolls before the scroll connects with a Technodrome turret, causing it to do Mike's nunchuck damage of 7.
Ideally, a list of rules would just be a list of "don'ts," where the assumption is that everything else is allowed. I don't expect anyone to address every single possible thing in the game, so if you just flat out ignore some of these, I am fine with that and will assume they are allowed.
What I do want, is someone to post an actual ruleset that can be copy pasted onto that board, and then we can give people a short amount of time to post disagreements, or if it simply gets enough likes that I can tell it has majority vote.
- No RNG Manipulation at Title Screen
- No Ledge Clip Jumps
- No killing steam rollers with Select.
- No killing MechaTurtle from the safe spot.
- No ceiling glitches.
- No Weapon Swap Glitch (even if it would be detrimental to you).
- No Mousser Glitch (getting the mouth to be permanently open by hitting Start).
- No manipulating Shredder so he can't hit you (killing him with scrolls, and thus making him unable to hit you, is okay?)
No one seemed against Damage Boosting. And despawning enemies is a common thing in NES games and I don't see that personally as a glitch.
Lazarus great job, but I have only two questions:
1.- What about the foot soldiers head in the Technodrome boss that can't hit you? When you are in the wheels and they are in the bottom. 2.- What about the final Bobba Fet (jetpack) sub boss before Shredder, that if you go all the way to the left and press down, he can't hit you.
Other than this I agree with you Lazarus, I like it, great job, thanks.
I'm a little behind on this thread but I am curious. What is the explanation behind some of these being considered a glitch?
• No RNG Manipulation at Title Screen - RNG manipulation is not a glitch in any way. • No Ledge Clip Jumps - I can see an argument for this but it's reaching. • No killing steam rollers with Select. - Makes sense • No killing MechaTurtle from the safe spot. - What? Boss manipulations are also not a glitch. Using a boss weakness to softlock a boss in mega man is certainly not a glitch, finding a safe spot or finding a way to stop the boss from using their weapon with simple in game movements or areas of standing (as long as you don't glitch to get to them) are not glitches at all. • No ceiling glitches. - makes sense • No Weapon Swap Glitch (even if it would be detrimental to you). - makes sense • No Mousser Glitch (getting the mouth to be permanently open by hitting Start). - makes sense • No manipulating Shredder so he can't hit you (killing him with scrolls, and thus making him unable to hit you, is okay?) - This is the same as the mecha turtle argument. These aren't glitches.
The idea of a glitchless category is fine but this is far from just glitchless. Quite a few arbitrary rules to this category that are head scratchers. Manipulations are not glitches whatsoever. Finding safe spots is part of learning boss patterns. Soft locking bosses with special weapons or hitting him continually to where they can not move is not a glitch. Whatever you decide this category is is up to you all but a lot of these rules aren't glitches.
Just my opinion on the matter. I'm all on board for glitchless categories for games but this one doesn't make much sense to me. Goodluck either way!
I completely agree with Toad22484's opinions. Manipulation in any way is not a glitch.
Standing on a ledge to attack a boss or using boss stunlocks are definitely not glitches. Why purposely make a fight riskier by fighting wildly in any speedrun, glitchless or not? It's not breaking the game or playing it unintentionally; Donatello's weapon has reach for a reason. This isn't like using select to damage the Yellow Devil in Mega Man 1 but more like saying using Metal Blade against Metal Man in Mega Man 2 refights is a glitch because it kills him in one or two hits - or even more so, using Toad to quick kill the Birdos in Super Mario Bros 2 because he can pick up and throw mushroom blocks faster than Birdo can spit out eggs. Some things are just mechanics of the game or good game play decisions, not glitches.
To get Shredder to be stunlocked, you have to bring scrolls from way earlier in the game and not use them or limit the use of them until after the huge gauntlet in the hallway. This is akin to bringing a fire flower from previous levels in SMB1 to the final castle and using it to take Bowser out from afar - there are no power-ups in the final castle so one has to not take damage to use the item to their advantage to make that fight easier. Again, this just breaks down to good game play over a game breaking glitch.
The scroll weapon exchange is also questionable since, as Kavoc pointed out, you can switch any sub-weapon and it does the damage of your main weapon. Forgive me if I'm wrong but wouldn't this mean that, when shooting the last of a sub-weapon, it would automatically do the damage of your main weapon? Does that mean that in a glitchless category, using the last of any sub-weapon would be banned by default? Would a pause to wait until it hits before switching back to the main weapon be required?
Regarding RNG manipulation, like Toad said - hard to track. And would waiting for an enemy to fall into the water in the sewers to make getting past a section a glitch or RNG manipulation? It's definitely an enemy movement manipulation - Why ban one but not all?
Not opposed at all to a glitchless category, though I probably wouldn't personally run it. Just feel that what is defined as a glitch should be a lot more consistent and clear.
anthole,
The last subweapon thrown does the damage as intended by the game, not an issue. I agree on all of your points. (after reading Kavoc's explanation, this may not be true? Either way, not a concern for the rules)
Everyone,
The only rule that I think should be up for discussion due to grey area is the subweapon damage trick. At this time, I believe it should not be allowed. And if you do the trick in reverse and end up doing less damage than your main attack, the run should still be valid, that's not a time save it's a mistake. You deplete a subweapon when you do it in reverse and you do less damage, it's lose/lose. But then there may be cases when your main weapon does more damage than your sub, but I don't see this possibly being beneficial in a run at all. Thoughts?
Category has been created!
I left out the steamroller despawn as I don't see where this is a time save anywhere since you can easily just damage boost through that van section and pick up a pizza at the end of the sewer to replenish health. If you want to take the extra time to despawn them, then feel free. I also don't see this as a glitch, as I believe the developers fully intended this so that you don't exit the van and immediately be squished.
If there are major disagreements with any of this, then don't submit runs until we discuss it further and come to an agreement.
No disageements. You already make the category, so now is official. So this is the final rules, thanks and good luck to all. I want to see the first run that is submitted in leaderbor, well see you soon and have a fun time.
I'm late to the party but I agree with the rules set forth on the glitchless category. I don't see anything there that I think shouldn't be there.
One rule that has come to mind is the conveyor belt speed boost by letting off the forward button when you jump. I don't know if anyone has used that tactic yet, but I don't think that should be allowed for a glitchless run. However, my mind might could be changed if any of you feel differently.
This category is proving very fun to run so far. Not stressing the ceiling clips and ledge grabs is great. I believe with some fine tuning it can be pushed to 18:3X. I'm still trying to figure out the enemy group at the end of the driving section. Most of the time I get the robots and have to exit and re-enter to get the fire guys, but sometimes I get the fire guys on the first entry.
Can somebody please explain me how conveyor belt works please?
I saw Red video because as far as I know he is the only one that uses.
I see that Donatello jumps near to the left part of conveyor and attacks down and I think I see it goes faster, but not sure.
