in plain english, this bugs the shit out of me.
There has been a lot of call for a PAL leaderboard for a long time now, and now that the infrastructure is in place I think it'd be okay. Thoughts?
I made an argument for this in the "Change" thread to show how ridiculous it would be to separate the regions:
We know that PAL is about 17% slower then NTSC. However when it comes to RE2 the IGT is even slower then that when it comes to PAL. That's why you are able to beat a really good Japanese run done by one of the best runners with a worse run on PAL.
As much as I hate PAL I will still argue for it. Through the history of speedrunning the entire world would import Japanese consoles most of the time to achieve the fastest time. Why can't they import the PAL version?
Since the difference in time is so huge and the only reason for it is that IGT is slower then 17% for some odd reason I would go against my own reasoning and a separation and plainly say BAN PAL
This goes down to 3 choices: Separate (WR losses its meaning + another subcategory) Keep it (PAL will always win. No serious runner would switch to PAL just to get an easy WR) BAN PAL (unfair IGT compared with other regions, game runs in slow motion and not many run it compare with NTSC)
The main issue at the end of the day isn't PAL or NTSC, it's the IGT for Resident Evil 2. On Playstation and Gamecube (could be Dreamcast and N64 too, but can't say for sure without testing) the PAL version's IGT is "faster", the only version exempt from this rule is the PC version, because there is no "PAL" version; every version runs at 29.97 fps.
This is really why a lot of communities use RTA over IGT. IGT for some games is simply too flawed to work with, and this is just one of those times.
I don't know how separating PAL would even work, and it'd prob require a large overhaul of the entire boards or having four tabs at the top marked "PAL". Like Leon A (PAL) etc. I would prefer PAL be banned because it's proven not to work properly, but then that only shows we're so attached to the games broken console IGT that we're willing to tell a bunch of people they absolutely have to import, which I find ridiculous, really.
I don't wanna vote for ban or separation though, really. One's an extreme, and the other is basically what Dara said, it's making a category for WRs on a single region.
If the decision is made to split regions then be prepared for a huge overhaul of the entire leaderboard. (it would also fix other little problems)
i made a quick mock up of what i think would be best way of changing the board (if it was to be changed) http://www.speedrun.com/Umbrella_Corps/full_game#PC
Each version has it's correct Sub categories, for example Regions aren't shown for PC and Hard mode is only shown for the versions that have it.
Emulators are in the same Leaderboard as console but separated by a Sub category.
Obviously it doesn't have to be that way but personally i think it looks cleaner, just my opinion.
PSP and PS3 are merged with the "PSN" category but again are separated by a sub category. This is something i wasn't sure about, But it works.
this is how i think the board should be IF it was changed. This would take quite some time to re-do the entire board.
Personally i think the boards are fine as they are right now and i will not be involved with any changes that are made.
Just the thought alone that regions could be separate is absolutely ridiculous and it's not something i want to be a part of. By default it ruins what "World Record" Really means.
So let's start with the bad parts because there's more of it.
BAD: Seperation of regions: No more WR's. Claiming that you have the "WR" for the NTSC-J/NTSC/PAL version is just fucking stupid........ Anyone that has been in this community for more then 3 years should remember what happen with REmake. History is about to repeat itself.........
Seperation between Console/Emulator: Everybody should know at this point that I'm against that Emulator should even have a place on a leaderboard. Emulators should be used for practice or to help you decide if you wanna speedrun a new game and not for serious competition. Hidden by default gave console priority in the ranking system which I think is the best option.
Seperation between PS3/PSP: I still havn't heard a good argument for this. You buy the game from Playstation store one time and you can then play it on your PSP or PS3. This should be treated exaclty like PS/PS2 and GC/Wii regardless if you get a better time on PSP. Every category should be based on one thing and one thing only and that is game (platform) version and not hardware. This saves a ton of leaderboards and only lets you use 1 board per game (platform) version. Right now PSP is merged with PS Emu. Reason seems to be that they both have "Playstation" in the name and the times are close to each other. This is absolutely laughable.
Subcategories: With the changes above we get more and more and more subcategories...... This makes it a pain to go through the leaderboards and it looks like absolute shit.
GOOD: Profiles: Platforms will be before the scenario on your profiles.
Exclusive modes: Hard mode subcategory will only be on the platforms that has it.
This is gonna sound like I'm bragging but whatever. I think that alot of people know and appreciate the big changes we've (Me and Ste) done to this leaderboard. Alot of time has gone into it for the better (until the seperation of versions like PS3, PSP and Emulator). This is NOT one of those cases.
I will have no part in it.
P.S my words may come across harsh but thats the way I write, no hard feelings lol. Any changes that are proposed are welcome and if I find something wrong about it then I'm gonna have to point it out.
If this is gonna come down to separating all regions (which it will), then it's gonna be so dumb.
PAL = objective advantage timer wise over anything else. NTSC-j = objective advantage over NTSC-u, cause text.
The reasoning why is different, but ultimately it's still a purely technical reason that is anything but skill related. This is why I see the same argument regarding NTSC-u coming up in future IF this follows through. It's inevitable.
So separating PAL will, at some point, lead to the separation of NTSC-u as well.
/off-topic below, but somewhat ... related? :P
I'll reinstate my reasoning why PS3 PSN should remain separated though. It's off-topic, but it's somewhat related to this. PS3 PSN is, hands down, the easiest console version to acquire and record. Sure, it might not be the fastest but it is definitely side-by-side to PC the most accessible version of RE2. Could be argued it IS the most accessible overall, due to issues with Sourcenext and Windows 10.
PS3 solves the very issue we're having here, in that there is NO PAL version on PSN whatsoever, because Sony gave the EU the NTSC-U version. Problem solved in regards to PSN. PSP is faster, sure but far more difficult to record, PSP 2000 only accepts component, PSP 3000 accepts both component and composite. PSP GO has an objective advantage in the case of allowing you to use a PS3 controller. This isn't mentioning all the homebrew stuff you can with PSP, like altering the hertz that it plays the game at by default.
There was an argument a while ago between Zelda speedrunners, in that the fastest version and the most accessible version should always take priority over anything else. This is the logic I am taking here. We have the fastest version which is PC (in the method in which we time, which is IGT), and we have the most accessible version... which is PS3 w/ PSN download. Every other console, besides PSP, has multiple hoops you have to jump through just to play the fastest version. Region-unlocking, importing... Not the case on PS3.
Burying PS3 below the inevitably faster version is essentially gonna kill anyone's desire to want to run it. The same desire that sparked this discussion; the want to be #1 on the boards but being unable to because of a technicality.
Well I've give it some thought and keeping it as it is wont work.
If we keep it then one day 1st place on the consoles will be PAL and the majority (if anyone) will not run it. I dont have high hopes for the WR holder to even improve his/hers WR either. Eventually the console boards will be completly dead. Which leaves us with 2 options. Seperate or Ban.
Like stated before, seperating the regions will take away WR's. That's not all thou. There is a total of 13 PAL runs currently on the board. 7 of them are between 1-3 years old. 5 of them are between 6-12 months old. 1 was done 1 month ago. I'm not even gonna attempt to count the JP/US runs.
Based on this we can clearly see that PAL is not popular at all and it never will be. PC/PS3 has no PAL and Emulator have easy access to JP/US.
What reason could there possible be to keep them if they will stay unoptimized and create dead categories? Seperation wont help making PAL more popular + the entire leaderboard would have to be redone to make that happen and it would eventually die out anyway.
If theres a vote then I'll vote ban PAL.
EDIT: Forgot to suggest that PS3 could have exclusive rights to PSN. PSP has 10 runs in total. 7 are 1-2 years old 2 are 8 months old 1 is 5 days old.
I apply the same reasoning for banning PAL. If it wont share the same board as PS3 then it should go imo.
I feel like keeping the boards as it is should suffice. I know at first glance seeing a PAL run at the top can often lead to misrepresentation of rankings especially when you take quality of the runs into account and compare them. It's not fair to any runner who dedicates their time to reach a specific goal on a speedrun leaderboard. With the nature of how PAL RE2 works (Gamecube has it the worst by far) it overshadows the runs below it and allows players to obtain a much lower time, but with less effort required. You're essentially cheapening the integrity of speedrunning this game on a whole spectrum.
However, speedrunning has been about one thing: finishing a game as fast as possible. PAL technically falls under this criteria still. The problem isn't so much with PAL, but with the way RE2's timer works in conjunction with the region itself. I don't exactly know the details behind PAL other than it's slower and how its limited frame count results in a lower clear time. This is where our current timing method with IGT starts to fail pretty hard, or displays inconsistencies. The timer is working as intended (whether we like it or not) and if we decide to keep the boards as is, what if PAL begins to draw interest in the future due to having the lowest clear time on consoles?
I'd rather not create a rift on these boards even if the current leaderboards allowed it to be reorganized and redone. The ratio between PAL and NTSC-U/J is incredibly small and we'd just end up with another empty board at the end of the day. I don't feel like anyone should feel imposed to run a particular version. If you want to optimize the PAL version, then go for it. We have a filter option there for a reason and I know I sound like I'm all over the place with this subject, I think the boards have been organized by Dara and Steven quite exceptionally well that it doesn't have to be restructured.
PS: I was gonna elaborate about timing methods with IGT to RTA, but the thought slipped my mind as I was typing this. Since PAL creates this gap with the IGT vs NTSC-U/J, you could just switch everything to RTA, but that's only to help distinguish clear times in that instance. I already stated the timer works as it's suppose to and revamping the timing method would be crazy BrokeBack
You can't compare the two, and it's there, and it's proven broken.
I say ban it if that's the case.
People ALWAYS have to import regardless to get the Japanese versions and most other communities already import NTSC consoles/games for their runs regardless, so I don't think that importing is much of an argument against banning PAL altogether. Never has been, in the speedrunning community. There are also many ways to be able to play the games at their proper speed in non-NTSC aside from PC. PSP, PS3, Dreamcast (does run at 60Hz btw), even emulation just to name a few.
PAL could exclusively use RTA alone, due to issues with the time conversion not being programmed properly. Keeps runs on the boards, sure it's using RTA which is entirely dependent on the console model and disc. But what's better, being able to submit runs in RTA, or having the thing being entirely banned?
The switch to RTA isn't necessary for NTSC but for PAL it is an easy solution somewhat. Commonly in speedrunning when there are proven issues with the IGT of a game, the community simply agrees to use RTA for said game/version.
Whilst it is true that PAL simply cannot compete on an IGT level with NTSC because it isn't accurate, I also think there has to be a better solution to this problem than proposing a ban.
Then again one issue with using RTA is Gamecube.
@Furry: Then PAL vs NTSC-U/J would be exactly like PSP vs PS3 for PSN. PAL would never be able to get first place.
oh btw, i just got WR for GC with a PAL run MVGame
EDIT: I take some of that back. Consoles cant be timed in RTA, IGT or mixed when PAL is involved. PAL is slow in RTA, fast in IGT and how would mixed even work?
There could be 1 more option actually which would be more accurate. We know RTA and IGT and the 17% difference in RTA. If someone could come up with a matematical formula to convert PAL IGT to NTSC-U/J IGT than that would be the best option and everyone would be happy lol That would count for everything thou, including time difference for text.
Somewhat off topic:
If we attempt to calculate this with 2 random runs (PAL and NTSC since we wont have any difference in text) we get:
PAL 56:02 RTA = 3362s 1:01:38 IGT = 3698s IGT/RTA = 1,0999405116002379535990481856038
NTSC 49:40 RTA = 2980s 1:04:08 IGT = 3848s IGT/RTA = 1,2912751677852348993288590604027
Now if we take into account that NTSC runs at 60Hz and PAL runs at 50Hz then we should get the same result when we convert NTSC to PAL right?
NTSC IGT/RTA = 1,2912751677852348993288590604027 Devide it by 60 and then multiply 50 to get it into PAL standard and we get: 1,0760626398210290827740492170023
So we get that PAL should be ~1,0760/RTA but in reality its ~1,0999/RTA.
Someone please correct me on this WutFace
The same has always been the case for regions though, really.
NTSC/U and PAL would always come out slower than NTSC/J simply because of text speed differences. If console were actually optimized to ridiculous degrees, it would pretty much be impossible for NTSC/U or PAL to get first place regardless.
My idea was only based off of being banned vs being low on the boards though, cause being banned is never a better choice than never being able to land 1st.
The RTA would probably be hard to work out and convert the PAL timer, because it's likely the problem with the PAL timer is that the algorithm in-game for it to generate 1 second onto the timer is still 30/60 fps. When it should be 25 pass = 1 second added to the IGT.
NTSC: So 30 frames pass out of menu = 1 second to the timer 60 frames in menu pass = 1 second to the timer
PAL: Same as above, what it should be is:
25 frames pass out of menu = 1 second 50 frames pass in menu = 1 second
Because PAL is 25 frames, 1 real-time second passes every 25/50 frames, but in-game that 1 second is likely only being added on every 30/60 frames.
This is just a guess, mind you.
OK, after some conversation in the Discord, because there was some uncertainty about what I was proposing (and thought that I meant an extreme of separating ALL regions), let me explain. This is my fault, I should have been clearer about what I was proposing in the OP, and I apologize for being lazy in my explanation. I would rather that history doesn't repeat itself while creating a happy medium for everyone else.
Here's what I mean-
The real problem isn't region separation, the real problem is 50Hz vs. 60Hz and accessibility to 60Hz versions. Nobody on the NTSC side gives a fuck about US vs. JPN, but there are clearly huge differences between NTSC and PAL but ONLY for PS1 and GCN.
I don't aim to add a million more leaderboards by separating ALL regions, because I agree, that's an extreme, and therefore ludicrous. All I would like is for there to be separate "console" leaderboard tabs for 50Hz specifically for GCN and PS1/Disc.
60Hz versions of RE2 can be obtained easily for play on GCN through softmods, but not everyone has the basic technical knowledge to hack a Wii and run GeckoOS or similar.
This is a bigger problem on PS1/2 because it requires hard mods, swap discs that don't work on every console (SCPH-90k models can't run swap discs, softmods, or modchips) or straight up buying a Japanese console to run the game (something I personally have no problem with because that's always been done in the speedrunning community since its inception).
PSN is a no-brainer, if you own a PSP or PS3 you can just buy the Japanese games off the Japanese PSN Store.
Dreamcast always runs in 60Hz on PAL iirc.
So really, the only consoles where this is a problem on is GCN and PS1/2. I'd say just add PS1/2 50Hz and GCN 50Hz tabs.
I think having 50/60hz tabs seems the most simple-safe-clear solution to be honest.
I've been only reading this thread 'till now because this is a huge problem to deal with and we can't mess up the entire leaderboard because literally 2-3 PAL runs.
We know PAL runs are not truly faster than the best NTSC/J runs, and RTA is not a solution for RE2 (at least for consoles).
For emu I would ban PAL entirely because why would you do that?
50/60Hz could be added as subcategories because PS, GC and N64 doesnt have Hardmode so it would just be replaced. Adding 3 50Hz as completely new tabs would just look horrible. So PS, GC and N64 gets to use 50/60Hz and everything else get 60Hz only.
All the notifications you've been getting is from me deleting/rejecting obselete runs, this will save SOO much time when switching the Scenario tabs with the platform subcategory.
Like furry has said, someone is gonna want a seperation between JP and US in the future so this "solution" will eventually be a problem. I'm still for banning PAL entirely either before the seperation or after.
I'm all for adding 50/60hz subcategories. Although we don't have it organized that way for Resident Evil HD Remaster's PC version with its different FPS settings (it's a mandatory value in our case rather than a sub category), it would help with reorganizing PAL with the other regions. Sort of a similar situation except REHD Remaster gives you control over FPS and is dependent on your PC hardware, whereas PAL has a fixed setting on its native console(s).
I'll fool around on the Umbrella Corps board. Nobody gives a shit about it anyway lol
Now I can finally compete on the Umbrella Corps boards with no loops and holes to go through. Thanks! \ OpieOP /
I might aswell add that since Emu wont have any 50Hz runs anymore the total amount of 50Hz runs currently on the board went down to 5 (excluding mine which I will delete anyway).
GC - Leon A: Plattyfc 1:02:25 EUR / PAL GCN 3 years ago carska 1:06:08 EUR / PAL GCN 2 years ago
PS - Leon A: Ollie-P-Lo 1:09:47 EUR / PAL PS2 8 months ago IbaneziaEU 1:26:06 EUR / PAL PS3 8 months ago
GC - Claire A: Plattyfc 1:08:06 EUR / PAL GCN 3 years ago
How many people will understand what the 60/50Hz subcategory even mean? Cant name it NTSC/PAL either cause its not about regions.
Whats the point....
