That was fast. :)

pvtcb

Not a bad idea...I will attempt as much as possible to make the routing template user-friendly, and the more overwhelming stuff can be hidden unless the reader wants to go there. I see the value in having detailed combat data for each enemy, for example, but it needs to be its own document for those who want to learn it.

So just NG+ cats for each character for the lowest two difficulty levels?

The general rule we're using here is "no empty categories". They make the boards look bad and our community look dead when it's actually just focused on specific categories in specific games. This means that in order to create a new category you need a run to submit for that category.

So if you're willing to do runs for each of those categories, do so and the categories can be created.

While I agree to a degree, I think that different players learn differently and what might be cumbersome for some may be what's necessary for others.

I'm a very rhythmic player, for example...I play guitar and keyboards and for me, CG and fighting games are like playing an instrument. I couldn't actually explain what I'm doing at all by this point because it's very nonverbal to me. I had a viewer asking me about JJCs the other day and after I finished my runs I tried to show him how to do them...which led to me struggling to verbalize what's actually happening.

Now, when I'm first learning, I can look at combo guides and learn from those to start with (especially with fighting games) but from that point on I'm experimenting and "riffing", figuring out moves and combos like I might learn a new song.

But some people sit there and study movelists and frame-data for a massive amount of time and learn primarily that way. They could list the infinites from MvC3 move by move and tell you the frames each link of them take.

This is why I think a collaborative project is so useful...I am thinking in terms of categories and abstractions because that is my style of thought, so I am working on a template that abstracts out features of speedrunning in general and this game in specific. Others who think in more concrete terms clearly want to contribute combat details, and I'm sure others will come up with other stuff I can't predict.

Since this is going to be a linked document anyway, I don't see any downside to including anything on-topic. It won't be any more cluttered than any wiki because all that info doesn't have to fit on one sheet of paper or something. Is there something I'm not seeing, some reason why that information should NOT be included?

I want to create a general template that will definitely include space for detailed combat discussion. I will then create a route document using that template for Vergil. If you want to contribute combat details for a specific character's route, it will go in there. More general stuff on general mechanics, the missions, and bosses will go in a generalized section related to the game but not a specific route.

If you want to just write out whatever you wish whenever and send it to me, I can plug it into the template for you later. Or you can wait till I've got the template finished or until I've finished my Vergil route using the template to get a better idea of what I'm intending, whichever works best for you.

You're also free to just write stuff up and add it to the resources section, of course. I'm just trying to make sure this actually gets done, so I'm taking responsibility for what I can.

Awesome!

I'm working on both a route template and then a route using it for Vergil. My goal is to be able to break down any game into various features like "major and minor tech", "execution-based, glitch-based, and mixed skips", things like that. I want us to be able to stop reinventing the wheel with every game.

Obviously, each of these routes will end up unique, but at the same time the template will act as both a tool for thinking about, breaking down, and talking about speedgames.

Of course, this will also be very useful for the Youtube show I've been planning and working on, thus aiding my general plans for world domination, but that's just a bonus.

Thanks for the contribution, Bun. As always, you are one of the backbones of our community and I appreciate your efforts.

@SkyeVeran I don't exactly know. While I was watching runs for a couple of years before I started running, I've only been doing this since August 2016. I just know we're not the first to deal with such issues. Perhaps we should look at how SRL and SDA have dealt with similar issues. I know that SRL has this little thing in the rules:

"Proofcalling

Proofcalling is the way that we deal with cheaters and doubtful times on SpeedRunsLive. If a racer finishes with a time that seems to be above their skill level, or if a new racer suddenly gets a high ranking time on the race leaderboards, it is common to initiate a proofcall if that racer did not stream. Proofcalling can be done by anyone, whether in the race or not, and anyone can be proofcalled regardless of position. It is common to ask for assistance in #speedrunslive from a voice or operator to come handle the situation. The goal will be set to "don't record" or "proofcall in progress", and the racer in question must provide sufficient proof, to convince the other racers and proofcall handler that they are able to achieve the time that they claimed. Examples of sufficient proof: Streaming in good quality with sound is always sufficient proof. Video recording in good quality. In some games, a screencapture of filename and progress of completion is sufficient. In some games, a screencapture of in-game timer or level overview is sufficient. In some games, an explanation of routing choices and key events is sufficient. These examples are general and it is unfortunately impossible to make a perfect guideline for what is sufficient proof, which is why we recommend streaming. Should you happen to be proofcalled and unable to provide proof for your time, as mentioned previously it does not necessarily label you a cheater, but rather unable to prove your time. You will be disqualified from the race, and in the worst cases where we do believe cheating has taken place, you will be banned from SpeedRunsLive. If you happen to leave during a proofcall or become inactive for a longer period of time, you will also receive a disqualification, and if we feel necessary, a ban from SpeedRunsLive."

In any case, the way that Yudhveer dealt with being asked for proof has done more to create suspicion than alleviate it, and if I were a mod I would feel like any future runs from him would need to be gone over with a fine-toothed comb before being approved. Does that mean he should be labeled "cheater" and banned? I don't know...he's a great player and I want great players to be in this game and community. I believe that friendly rivalry makes communities like ours better by spurring us all on to greater efforts. So I want people who can play like him around, but I also don't want mods getting burnt out going through runs with such a great level of detail. There is a limit to how much one can ask from unpaid volunteers.

So we have nothing...no route guides or combat guides or anything here. This hasn't been an issue, really, as we are a small community.

However, I've seen more interest lately, partially because of Maxy's AGDQ run of 1, I'm sure, and some of that interest seems to be coming to 4. Even Elajjaz, an awesome runner from my former community (Soulsborne/Speedsouls...I used to run Bloodborne) has recently been seen playing 4:SE.

So I suggest we collaborate on some resources (at least full routes for each character plus a general guide). I can host and manage a wiki (I have hosting space and can volunteer the resources) or we can make some stuff in Google Docs, on Pastebin, or whatever (I'm open to suggestions).

I used to be a writer (as in I'm published and regularly get crappy residual checks) so I can do the lion's share of the actual writing, but I only really possess expertise in Vergil. That's where the rest of the community comes in. I've beaten every game except 2 on DMD and beaten 4 with every character, but I've only run Vergil, and I'm not even the best Vergil player (yet...Kappa). I need the other routes and explanations of the tech involved.

So I need volunteers for the other characters. I will do most of the writing (assuming you want that...you can all write whatever you want, I'm just trying to help make sure it all happens) and make up a set of questions for each volunteer that will let me write out each resource.

If you're interested, please contact me via email at thepuck77gaming @gmail.com. I'm also on Twitter @thePuck77 and Discord @thePuck77#5239, so feel free to hit me up wherever you feel most comfortable.

I (cautiously) support the streaming rule, but then again, I stream all my "real" runs anyway (hell, my most recent PB had the person who would verify it in the stream while I did it). But I also think that this rule runs a risk of alienating people who don't want to stream their runs (for whatever reason). Some people have upload caps or live with people who won't allow them to dominate their bandwidth. While I agree that the need for rules are there, we need to balance those rules between the overall goals of excluding cheaters and encouraging a vibrant and active community.

We are not the first community to deal with this issue. It would be good to look at the solutions used by others in the past. Whether it's repeating their errors or failing to learn from their successes, we miss out by ignoring our history.

I have to agree with Zero...the easiest way to make sure there is no drama about run legitimacy, do your runs with timer in the recording/stream.

As for people being put off from running the game because of this...people who can't deal with someone cheating and being called out by moderators and the community won't be able to deal with much. There was zero drama...the run was investigated by a moderator and disqualified with an explanation and the rest of the existing community accepted it. Anything worth competing for will be worth cheating for by some people...if it occurring at all puts you off, then you're probably going to have similar problems with other communities. Perhaps something non-competitive, where there will literally be no contention at all, would be better.

The fact that the runner in question is running around pretending that he gets to decide he holds the record anyway is not the responsibility of the community, it's the responsibility of that runner. Asking "what can I do to prove it?" and then ignoring the answers is also on the runner, not the community. Take it up with him if you have an issue with it.

And there is no confusion over the WR. The run in question was disqualified, period. The only times you need to worry about are the ones on the board...run or don't.

You can definitely do glitchless speedruns, and many game communities already have a "Glitchless" category set up. If they don't, get on that game's forum and ask about it...most likely the mods will add it if there is any interest.

A good way to think about it is:

Speedrunners use two basic methods to beat games faster than in casual play:

1. Expertise: skill at the game and knowledge beyond that of the average casual player leads to the speedrunner knowing which fights/areas/goals are avoidable, knowing strats that speed up fights, puzzles, platforming sections, etc, and to the speedrunner being able to perform well in various in-game ways (fight faster, platform more confidently, etc).
2. Skips: skips actually skip sections of the game that were put in place by the designers.

Skips, in turn, can be divided into two different types:

1. Execution-based: the speedrunner uses superior skill/knowledge of the movements possible in the game to skip sections without using any glitches. A good example from my main gain is a skip where, instead of an appearing/disappearing bridge puzzle combined with enemies that can cost a lot of time under the best conditions, I run up to the edge of one of the bridges, jump off, and execute a combo that gets me over to the exit without having to wait:
2. Glitch-based: the speedrunner uses knowledge of the features of the game itself, as a piece of software, often in combination with execution, to skip sections of the game. Another example from my main game is a skip where I use the fact that the game developers never made the ceiling of this area actually block anything to do a combo that takes me up and out, allowing me to skip several fights, areas, and cut-scene loads:

I hope that helps. Welcome to speedrunning. :)

I decided to switch to DMC4:SE because I took on the goal of being the best Vergil player. That sets out certain games, 4:SE, 3:SE, and DmC Vergil's Downfall and Bloody Palace DLCs, as the universe of discourse for my current goal.

However, just as I switched from Bloodborned to DMC, I could switch from DMC to whatever based on my obsessions at the moment. I am currently looking for a good classic game to learn for 12-Hour this year, and if I like whatever game I pick enough it will probably become a permanent addition to my repertoire.

"He really should" do a lot of things. :/

Yudhveer, you've been posting vids claiming to have records that the community has not recognized...that's not how any speedrunning community works. Your runs must be submitted and approved to be acknowledged as records.

You can't just go around claiming records. There is a reason there is a site, why we have mods, and (I'm sorry, but apparently everyone is willing to just ignore this basic fact), reasons why your run was disqualified.

You haven't addressed all of Bun's claims, and the more defiant you are about it, the more likely it seems that you meant to cheat.

The best proof would be the raw recording that you edited down to make your submission. If you didn't cheat, it should be easy to compare them and the frames and timecodes of the two videos, when compared, should match.

This needs to be resolved before you claim any more records and, if it is found that you cheated, some sort of consequences seems appropriate, though that isn't my call (and I don't want it to be...I don't want to be a mod).

@Yudhveer I am not in charge, and had nothing to do with your case, but I was around the DMC Discord and paying attention when your run was disqualified, so I can explain it. Upon examination, multiple problems were found with your run by a mod. If you can refute the evidence, do so.

Again, I had nothing to do with this, I just wanted to make sure you got an answer and that it it didn't get lost in the recent drama of AGDQ and you had some sort of answer to your questions.

The evidence was presented to the community via Pastebin: http://pastebin.com/FUhibDQ3

I think SC runs are like TAS runs...it pushes the boundaries of what we know is possible. We learn from that.

Seriously.

lol what I mean is the loading issues that exist in NG and NG+ due to using RTA and load times being different on different platforms. That's why most games use IGT when they can...to get rid of speed differences due to hardware differences. It's not our hardware that's competing.

Some RTA split counters can get close to IGT through "auto-splitters", settings for each game that observe certain memory states and split, pause, and resume the timer based on the states of the game. These only work for games played on PC, of course, and my split counter (Llanfair) doesn't offer them anyway.

Nonetheless, if we decide to use RTA and our counters, I propose starting the clock when we hit "start" in the Bloody Palace loading screen, and that time stops on slashing sound/ending of Bloody Palace after death of Dante.

I've noticed this, too, but figured since we were all using it, our runs would all be inaccurate to the same degree. I'm willing to switch to RTA and use my counter, though of course that reintroduces the issue of load times present in NG and NG+.