In Afterbirth, the "Jud9s" category was made, where you finished 9 characters with the Jud6s mod.

Since this category was fairly popular in Afterbirth, there should probably also be some sort of Jud6s mod category for Afterbirth+. However, it doesn't necessarily have to be the same exact category, especially because it is now possible to actually give the D6 to every character in the game.

Let's make the category as fun to speedrun as it can possibly be.

1. How many characters should the category be?

The old category was 9 characters long, but we don't have to keep that number. However, it might be a good number to keep since it is kind of a happy medium between 7 characters and 11 characters (the 2 most popular existing vanilla categories).

2. What characters should the category be?

For reference, the original category had the following characters:

• Isaac
• Maggy
• Cain
• Judas
• Blue Baby
• Samson
• Azazel
• Lazarus
• The Lost

I spoke with Dea1h about this, and we agreed that it might be cool to rotate in Keeper, since he is significantly buffed in Jud6s. (In the mod, he currently starts with Greed's Gullet, Duality, and 25 cents, although that is subject to change.)

Besides just making the character more fun, a different Keeper would help the category stand out a little bit from the other ones.

The most boring character is Isaac (since everyone else obviously has the D6), so it seems like a good swap to swap out Isaac for Keeper.

Besides Keeper, now that Eve can start with the D6, it also probably makes sense to swap Maggy out for Eve, since Eve is just a more interesting character in general with the health management aspect.

I definitely haven't finished pondering this topic yet, but these are my initial thoughts. Feel free to discuss what you think would be the best / the most fun.

I like the idea of changing the characters used if it continues to be 9 characters ( I would agree swapping keeper and Eve for Isaac and Maggy would be more fun). But at the same time if every character has the d6 now why cant we have multiple runs in the mod just like vanilla Isaac.

So why not 7-11-14, then you can choose what character you want to prioritize anyways in a run and get to play them all with having more categories to play. I don't see a reason why we cant have multiple category runs for this category anymore and I think it would be fun having the variety.

I'd like to stick with 9 char runs, never been of a fan of 7-11-14. Swapping in Keeper or Eve though sounds like a nice way to spice things up.

9 seems like a really good pace, so I would stick with that.

First character I would replace is Maggy (mostly because of the longer reset times due to her low speed, in addition to her lack of original features) and rotate in Eve for her. Not sure about Keeper because I haven't tested how he works now. One big issue I had with Keeper in AB was that you had to reset for big 5, in order for him to be speedrunable and that's just tedious imo. If Keeper is buffed to the point where you can viably start most of the regular starts in a speedrun, I'm all for adding him and throwing Isaac out. If Keeper is still just resetting for big 5, only with slightly better survival rate, then I'm against it for now, and we could possibly tinker with Keeper until we've reached that goal and add him then.

@HauntedQuest maggie speed is fixed in ab+. She starts with a speed up pill, so her speed is no longer that annoying

First of all, 9 characters is perfect to me. I won't make it 11 or 14, those are too anoying for me (I had a sub 1:30 on 7 char but never tried to do 11-13 on ab, those are too tedious and long)

I don't like Keeper because of what HauntedQuest said. You have to reset for big 5, shadow or lilbrim because his low tear rate makes it impossible to start mid-to-low tier starts. I'm up for swapping Eve in and taking Isaac or Maggie.

I kinda of agree with Karolmo and Haunted. The main reason players took to the jud9s category is because it is fun and less tedious to run than the regular 7-11-13(14) charas. Keeper, even buffed, might be interesting for some people but the character has such bad starting stats that he is just a pain to play most times. I think this category should be left as fun as possible. So as it stands, in my humble opinion, keeper doesn't have his place in it.

9 charas is good for me too. And finally I don't really mind switching Eve for either Maggy or Isaac.

9 char is fine I think

Maybe we can include 2 cats for Jud9s to make people decide what want to run, one long for tryhards and classical 9 chars that i would love to run in ab+ since vanilla is pretty shitty.

So 9 Chars its amazing for me, but including keeper can be sightly frustrating

If you build it, they will come.

AKA, if you make a category ppl will probably run it.

7-11-14

Jud9s Classic or Jud9s but Maggie/Isaac is Eve

Jud9s+ with what Zam suggested

Just a suggestion, honestly have no preference. I'll probably try 7 char jud6s if I do any because it'll be the shortest.

I like lobster's suggestion. Having both a Jud9s and a Jud9s+ category would be nice!

To Sed / Crafter: Keeper is buffed by a lot in the mod. Please play-test it and tell me if you still think that the character is a pain to play. If it is, we can consider reworking him to make him a bit better than he is now, by giving him more coins, or by giving him the D6, or both.

To Slash / Lobster / starg09: It seems that some people like the 9 character amount. Since all characters have the D6 (except for Keeper), wouldn't it be a lot simpler then to have a 9 character category + a 14 character category instead of 7-11-14?

I'll try Keeper "jud6s style" out. But just to clarify, I have no problem with the little health he has. The Lost has none but for the holy mantle and I am fine with him. Keeper's Fat Mag starting speed and, worst of all, his appalling tear rate that contrary to regular triple shot gets much worst with a few good items (quad or poly for instance), are really what makes him not fun to play with. I'm afraid Greed's Gullet, adding more health/coins and the D6 won't change that.

9-14 seems like a good idea.

let's do 9-14 yas

so it seems like the opinions about that Keeper discussion are split, I suggest we can close this topic and create a category which will be the vanilla jud9s like before for 9 chars and separate category for jud6s 14 chars, that way people will also be able to run 9-14 and play the keeper while doing that.

Of course if people will want to make new category in the future we will be able to do that but for now I think best solution is just creating jud9s category like it was so people could run this category and submit it.

i played on new keeper in jud6s mod. dualiti greed bag and 25 coin at start makes him very powerfull char, you almost always have mapping(free key in shop and reroll mashine). You don't need resets for big 5 only, But still need good angel deal for that. Also we still have a problem with eden he can't reset game by R. Vanila 9 char is ok but 2 chars without special gimmic(isaac and mag) like whore or samson kind of boring. Also appolion have nothing special too.

So my suggestin list now for 9 char: Keeper The lost Bb Eve Samson Judas Cain Laz Azazel

Well, the thread has been open for 21 days now, so let's recap.

1. Lately, I've been working on the Racing+ racing platform for Afterbirth+. If you don't know about it, you can find read about it at the official website: https://isaacracing.net

2. I renamed the Jud6s mod to the Racing+ mod. The reason is because, having the official mod for Racing+ be called Jud6s would be confusing. It's more straightforward to just call them both Racing+ (the Racing+ client and the Racing+ mod). So, subsequently, the category name should also be changed from Jud9s to something like R9 or R+9.

3. From reading through the thread, most people seem to agree that keeping 9 characters is good, and adding a 2nd category for 14 characters is also good. So we can have R+9 and R+14. That sounds like it would make mostly everyone happy.

4. It seems like some people like the idea of adding Keeper and some people don't. The reason that some don't like Keeper is because he is too underpowered. So, I think a good compromise is to keep Keeper in the 9 character category, but to buff him a little bit. Note that I already did buff Keeper, but I guess I can buff him a little more.

I propose buffing Keeper in two (new) ways, beyond the buffs I already did:

#1) Probably, the best way to buff him is to fix the bug with the Greed's Gullet. (This is a bug with the vanilla game, NOT just with the mod.) In case you haven't played Keeper yet in the mod, the bug is that Keeper's health containers get bugged when you take a devil deal such that the game doesn't refill them after picking up HP items. This means that you pretty much can't take any devil deals, which is really lame.

If I fix the bug, then you can actually take Devil Deals and play him like a normal character. I can (probably) do this by completely recoding Greed's Gullet from scratch as a custom item to replace the base Greed's Gullet. This is similar to what I did with the Book of Sin to make it seeded.

#2) Additionally, I'll add another 25 cents to the character, which will give you 4 starting containers instead of 3.

Let me know if this sounds reasonable. In the meantime, look for those changes in the next patch, which I'll work on today. After the patch, if you try out Keeper and he still feels like he is too weak (or un-fun!), please let me know in this thread and we can continue discussing whether he needs another buff or not.

Id say keep the same 9 char from AB in 9 char if we are gonna have a 14 char anyway.

no duality anymore? @Zamiel or just buf more then now

Duality will be kept. To be clear: I'm proposing buffing Keeper in two (new) ways, beyond the buffs I already did.